A Welsh Flow Hive Harvest

[Karol]

<snip> No hygiene issues if you use plastic tubing and cover the receptacle. Certainly not exposed anymore than any other way of extracting....probably less. <snip>

Sorry Tremyfro but food production can never be that flippant. Really no hygiene issues or hygiene issues that you've not considered?

It's great that you drew off your honey without too much disruption to the hive and that's a really positive outcome but it's also come as a consequence of learning from and anticipating issues raised through debate.

I see the Flow hive as a potentially serious threat to the quality and safety of the honey harvested from them because of issues around hygiene. Understanding what happens to the honey in the collection channels after harvest is fundamental to the quality and safety of the next harvest. Open honey is hygroscopic and the hives maintain temperatures conducive to the growth of various microbes including some serious pathological ones and possibly ones that haven't been considered simply because no one has used Flow hives for any great length of time. The Flow hive provides all of the right conditions for microbial growth - honey for nutrients, condensation and lack of ventilation for moisture and warmth from the bees. I can for example envisage outbreaks of botulinum poisoning in situations where appropriate hygienic measures have not been taken between harvests. In one of the Flow hive videos that I've seen the beekeeper reported that the honey had a strange 'fermented' (but still nice) taste. Might be nothing but it could well be as a consequence of moulds, yeasts or other microbes present in the system.

And please don't take this as being negative. These are issues that have to be addressed to make Flow hives work in a safe manner so as to keep people who consume the honey safe.

 

[Anduril]

I'm sure I read that the flow frames needed cleaning twice a year. If I had them I would sterilise them after extraction and not store them wet. They may need sterilising before installing them in the spring.

 

[Karol]

Yes they would need to be sterilized. The problem is how? As they're plastic the only way would be to use disinfectant. The difficulty with disinfectants is that if you use the same type you get resistance and if you rotate your disinfectants then the plastic may get tainted. They would have to be stored bone dry and would have to be dried quite quickly to prevent spore formers from growing and then forming spores in response to slow dessication.

 

[Hivemaker.]

The problem is how?

Irradiation?... or maybe autoclave if the plastic can withstand the treatment, then store in the autoclave bags until needed.

 

[Anduril]

Irradiation?... or maybe autoclave if the plastic can withstand the treatment, then store in the autoclave bags until needed.

I'm sure irradiation makes the plastic brittle, autoclave temperatures of 121 centigrade not good.

 

[alldigging]

Yes they would need to be sterilized. The problem is how? As they're plastic the only way would be to use disinfectant. The difficulty with disinfectants is that if you use the same type you get resistance and if you rotate your disinfectants then the plastic may get tainted. They would have to be stored bone dry and would have to be dried quite quickly to prevent spore formers from growing and then forming spores in response to slow dessication.

Why would they need to be sterilised?

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Draining a couple of hundred pounds of honey into buckets, at the apiary doesn't sound like fun. That would take a while, not to mention dodgy hygiene standards involved in open air operation.

Lifting a heavy super to insert a clearer board doesn't sound like fun

Carrying a heavy super to the transport and extracting room doesn't sound like fun

Cleaning the extracting room ready for use doesn't sound like fun

Carrying the supers back to the hive for the bees to cleanup doesn't sound like fun

Cleaning and drying the extractor after use doesn't sound like fun

Cleaning the extractor room and all the door handles in the house doesn't sound like fun

BUT those of us who don't have Flow Hives do all of the above because that's what we have to do. Tremy does have to do any of that. Her honey hasn't been fired through the air inside a spinner so that the volatile aromatics have are lost to the smell and flavour in the jar.

There are more advantages to the Flow Hive than you have considered - all except the cost!

CVB

 

[Hivemaker.]

Lifting a heavy super to insert a clearer board doesn't sound like fun

Carrying a heavy super to the transport and extracting room doesn't sound like fun

Cleaning the extracting room ready for use doesn't sound like fun

Carrying the supers back to the hive for the bees to cleanup doesn't sound like fun

Cleaning and drying the extractor after use doesn't sound like fun

Cleaning the extractor room and all the door handles in the house doesn't sound like fun

They are all fun and enjoyment as far as I'm concerned, but then I do enjoy almost all aspects of beekeeping and what the job entails, others obviously don't, sometimes wonder why they bother with beekeeping really.

Dealing with heavy supers, now I really love that job.

 

[Anduril]

Why would they need to be sterilised?

Read post 41

 

[Karol]

I imagine that apart from making the plastic brittle, irradiation would also cause distortion/warping possibly leading to jamming and the same would go for heating to 134°C in a porous load autoclave (121°C is for fluids).

To be pedantic, I used the word 'sterilized' in the lay context much like it's applied to the treatment of baby bottles. I wasn't actually expecting the term to be taken to mean pharmaceutically sterile which I think would be overkill (pun not intended for the initiated).

Might be better to use the terms 'disinfected' or 'sanitized' which would be more accurate/appropriate. I imagine that a thorough wash and soak in a detergent (amphoteric surfactant) solution followed by a rinse with boiled and cooled water and finally a 2 minute drench with 70% IMS and then drying until bone dry before storage would do the trick.

 

[Anduril]

Speak to a bee inspector to find out the approved chemical for food storing items. The NBU may need to provide info on Beebase about the appropriate cleaning procedure for Flow Frames.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

They are all fun and enjoyment as far as I'm concerned, but then I do enjoy almost all aspects of beekeeping and what the job entails, others obviously don't, sometimes wonder why they bother with beekeeping really.

 

[Swarm]

Lifting a heavy super to insert a clearer board doesn't sound like fun

Carrying a heavy super to the transport and extracting room doesn't sound like fun

Cleaning the extracting room ready for use doesn't sound like fun

Carrying the supers back to the hive for the bees to cleanup doesn't sound like fun

Cleaning and drying the extractor after use doesn't sound like fun

Cleaning the extractor room and all the door handles in the house doesn't sound like fun

BUT those of us who don't have Flow Hives do all of the above because that's what we have to do. Tremy does have to do any of that. Her honey hasn't been fired through the air inside a spinner so that the volatile aromatics have are lost to the smell and flavour in the jar.

There are more advantages to the Flow Hive than you have considered - all except the cost!

CVB

I was replying to something that was said by the OP so really no need for a silly list, we all know what's involved when harvesting.
How long does it take to remove supers compared to flowing it all? Unless flowing it all, what's the point?
The hygiene part has already been covered. You don't even need to extract, cut comb won't suffer any loss to thin air?
I asked an honest question as I see these things as novelty and nothing more. Sorry if that upsets you.

 

[alldigging]

Speak to a bee inspector to find out the approved chemical for food storing items. The NBU may need to provide info on Beebase about the appropriate cleaning procedure for Flow Frames.

Or ask flowhive.

Are there areas in the flow frames that the bees can't get to in order to clear up any spilt honey? Bees don't generally leave it lying about in the frames and there's no reason that I can see that they could be 'cleaned dry' by the bees in the same way as normal frames.

I did assume that the idea of cleaning the flow frames was to remove propolis and wax that would otherwise hinder the free movement of the frames for removing the honey. But I haven't greatly studied the structure of the frames as they are a bit expensive for a look-see.

 

[Karol]

The collection channels can't be accessed by the bees so can't be cleaned by them.

 

[Anduril]

Or ask flowhive.

Are there areas in the flow frames that the bees can't get to in order to clear up any spilt honey? Bees don't generally leave it lying about in the frames and there's no reason that I can see that they could be 'cleaned dry' by the bees in the same way as normal frames.

I did assume that the idea of cleaning the flow frames was to remove propolis and wax that would otherwise hinder the free movement of the frames for removing the honey. But I haven't greatly studied the structure of the frames as they are a bit expensive for a look-see.

I disagree with asking the Flow Hive team. The cleaning has to conform to this countries rules and regs.

 

[For want of a better word]

Originally Posted by Tremyfro View Post
I suppose it depends on how you look at things..... Is there any point in buying the latest Ferrari.....since you cant drive it on the road any faster than 70mph.

My Ferrari was only used on "Track Days" change from 1st to 2nd was around 70mph!

Not a happy ending for this one!!

Not a good analogy as a description of something of not much use....
A chocolate teapot is a much better one... but then the Welsh lass does not seem to be in tune with my sense of humor!

Just joshing!!

Nos da

 

[Anduril]

A chocolate teapot is a much better one

Ideal for iced tea

 

[Tremyfro]

View attachment 13563Originally Posted by Tremyfro View Post
I suppose it depends on how you look at things..... Is there any point in buying the latest Ferrari.....since you cant drive it on the road any faster than 70mph.

My Ferrari was only used on "Track Days" change from 1st to 2nd was around 70mph!

Not a happy ending for this one!!

Not a good analogy as a description of something of not much use....
A chocolate teapot is a much better one... but then the Welsh lass does not seem to be in tune with my sense of humor!

Just joshing!!

Nos da

Your sense of humour is flawed...that would be why it is wasted on me...
You did as usual, miss the point...as did JBM....my point is that although you may view those things as of not much use...they are however, a lot of fun!
How strange that you call me a 'Welsh lass' .....
Anyway...despite your 'joshing' comments....watching the honey harvest using the Flow frames was a huge amount of fun.
Anyone accusing me of not looking after my bees, not being hygienic whilst extracting it, not enjoying all aspects of beekeeping had better wind their necks in. I have openly shared my experiences about the flow frames with you all ...which I didn't need to do...then you still be in ignorance...which pretty much sums up some peoples attitude about Flow frames.
In regard to ensuring the frames are clean for the bees next year...they are easy to clean.....you can take them apart...soak them in Milton. It's not a big deal.
And before Karol descends on me again about rules and regs...I don't sell my honey and you can be certain I won't be poisoning my family.
The Flow frames work....and that is simply the truth.

 

[pargyle]

They are all fun and enjoyment as far as I'm concerned, but then I do enjoy almost all aspects of beekeeping and what the job entails, others obviously don't, sometimes wonder why they bother with beekeeping really.

Dealing with heavy supers, now I really love that job.

YEAH THAT .... Isn't there something just wonderful when you try and lift a super and you realise it's about twice a heavy as you thougt it was going to be !