'Renting' beehives. How much?

[Mlfbah]

I have been asked by a resident's association to look after their couple of beehives this year after the previous beekeeper gave up beekeeping at the end of last year. I'll be paying for all costs including treatments/feed/wax/extraction/jarring/labelling etc during the year, and it's a bit of a drive away. I already sell my own honey, so was thinking for every 1/2 lb jar of honey their hives produce, they get £1 as a way of 'renting' the hives and bees off them, or should we follow a different model? We do spring, summer and heather extractions so even at £1 per jar I'm estimating that they may get almost £200 per hive each year, but is that enough? I'm trying to protect myself from the likes of last year where we got very little summer honey, and if I pay a flat fee of perhaps £200 per hive or more I could end up out of pocket after all the effort.

 

[emoclewbee]

I have been asked by a resident's association to look after their couple of beehives this year after the previous beekeeper gave up beekeeping at the end of last year. I'll be paying for all costs including treatments/feed/wax/extraction/jarring/labelling etc during the year, and it's a bit of a drive away. I already sell my own honey, so was thinking for every 1/2 lb jar of honey their hives produce, they get £1 as a way of 'renting' the hives and bees off them, or should we follow a different model? We do spring, summer and heather extractions so even at £1 per jar I'm estimating that they may get almost £200 per hive each year, but is that enough? I'm trying to protect myself from the likes of last year where we got very little summer honey, and if I pay a flat fee of perhaps £200 per hive or more I could end up out of pocket after all the effort.

I don't think I understand.
You are going to manage their bees, cover all the expenses, and pay them a "rental fee"?
In exchange you get the keep the honey you harvest and I assume any nucs/Queens?
That makes no sense to me at all.

 

[Mlfbah]

I don't think I understand.
You are going to manage their bees, cover all the expenses, and pay them a "rental fee"?
In exchange you get the keep the honey you harvest and I assume any nucs/Queens?
That makes no sense to me at all.

Would there be a better way to approach this? I'm open to ideas. I've never been asked to do something like this before.

 

[emoclewbee]

Would there be a better way to approach this? I'm open to ideas. I've never been asked to do something like this before.

I don't think I get what is the transaction is.
They have hives and need them managed right? To what end, they just want bees in the area I am assuming? Or do they want Honey?
You are planning to provide them a service in that situation so why would you pay them, to give them a service?
You need to learn what their goal is, and decide what yours is. Do you want money? Do you want the honey crop?
Your description sounds like they want their bees to be managed and you are happy to get the produce from the hive in exchange. I wouldn't exchange any money if that is the case. Unless they want some of the crop in which case you should be paid, not them.

 

[Mlfbah]

I don't think I get what is the transaction is.
They have hives and need them managed right? To what end, they just want bees in the area I am assuming? Or do they want Honey?
You are planning to provide them a service in that situation so why would you pay them, to give them a service?
You need to learn what their goal is, and decide what yours is. Do you want money? Do you want the honey crop?
Your description sounds like they want their bees to be managed and you are happy to get the produce from the hive in exchange. I wouldn't exchange any money if that is the case. Unless they want some of the crop in which case you should be paid, not them.

My plan was to take the honey as a means of being paid for the service I'm providing and then sell it on to cover all the costs and hopefully have some profit to make it worthwhile.
They initially just wanted bees in their garden, but are now looking at them as a means of raising funds for the upkeep of the garden, and are looking to increase the number of colonies by buying more hives and hoping I make splits during swarm control and populate the new hives.
The previous beekeeper was managing them voluntarily and got nothing out of it, and was probably out of pocket.
I'm trying to work out in my own head how to approach it now before I have a proper conversation with them where I'll probably have to commit to some model of payment, and don't want to find out later what I should have done.
It could be the case that they want to keep the honey for themselves, and if that's the case I have no idea what to charge for my time/labour/costs for the year. I know it would be useful to know more about what their ideas and expectations are, but I'm trying to be prepared before I meet them again.

 

[emoclewbee]

If they want them actively managed with an aim to make money then they should be paying you imo.

Renting hives is not something I have come across. I know a beekeeper who manages hives for a neighbour. His neighbour inherited hives and wants bees in them but doesn't want to managed them. He gets all the produce and no money changes hands.
Doing some official rent agreement I have never seen.
If you need more honey as you are committed to supplying it I could see why, maybe. But the price would have to be right. 200 pounds would get an over wintered nuc here and I would rather invest in expanding Colony numbers than renting hives it I had supply commitments

If you are doing this to be charitable then that is fine.
But you are providing a service to them. You are taking the risk of losing the bees and finicial commitment to feed and treat.
That service is worth pay, whether that is money or honey is between you and the RA, but I certainly wouldn't be paying to work for someone else.

 

[Wilco]

As above, if they're wanting the hives kept and you're providing a service, they should be paying you, per hive. You should also bill for extraction time per set amount of honey as that way the pay is proportional to the amount of work.

Taking honey as payment is risky for you as in a bad year you won't get much recompense and you still need to sell it on.

The simplest method for them if they want the bees to make money is for one of them to learn to keep bees.

Obviously if you want to do it for the joy of it and maybe get some honey back then it's your call. However, if they're potentially expanding a lot then you may find yourself offering basically free labour to them so maybe think about how much work you're prepared to put in and what your main motivation is.

 

[Mlfbah]

Thanks emoclewbee & Wilco for your time and replies and helping me think this through. I'm hoping to meet with them during the week so I'll try to have some plan prepared before then.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I have been asked by a resident's association to look after their couple of beehives this year after the previous beekeeper gave up beekeeping at the end of last year. I'll be paying for all costs including treatments/feed/wax/extraction/jarring/labelling etc during the year, and it's a bit of a drive away. I already sell my own honey, so was thinking for every 1/2 lb jar of honey their hives produce, they get £1 as a way of 'renting' the hives and bees off them, or should we follow a different model? We do spring, summer and heather extractions so even at £1 per jar I'm estimating that they may get almost £200 per hive each year, but is that enough? I'm trying to protect myself from the likes of last year where we got very little summer honey, and if I pay a flat fee of perhaps £200 per hive or more I could end up out of pocket after all the effort.

I think I'd approach this as a job. So you manage their hives for a wage. Materials, equipment and bees, plus overheads are provided by your employer. Any produce is theirs to sell on as they wish.

 

[Mlfbah]

I think I'd approach this as a job. So you manage their hives for a wage. Materials, equipment and bees, plus overheads are provided by your employer. Any produce is theirs to sell on as they wish.

That would be more straightforward, but the trouble is that I would have no idea what to charge for my time/labour, and also the extraction and jarring. Is there any beekeeper already doing this kind of thing and has an agreed amount they get per hive?
Even though they're a bit of a drive away, being a rural area they are still considered fairly local and we cross paths with them regularly. The danger is that any 'wage' will seem to them as extortionate, especially after the last beekeeper was a volunteer, and if I don't produce the goods at the end of the year that meet their expectations, bad year or not, I'll be seen to be to blame. I know I'm probably overthinking it.

 

[sipa]

You charge £250 per hive per annun, for management PLUS any costs for feed,treatments, replacement frames and wax.
They keep ALL the production, if any. You charge additionally for extraction and bottling £1.50 per lb
Survival of the colonies is not guaranteed, they bare any costs of replacement.
The bees belong to them, you just manage them for a fee.

The fee of £250 equates to £10 per hour if you spend 25 hours p/a per colony (to include travel time)

 

[pargyle]

You charge £250 per hive per annun, for management PLUS any costs for feed,treatments, replacement frames and wax.
They keep ALL the production, if any. You charge additionally for extraction and bottling £1.50 per lb
Survival of the colonies is not guaranteed, they bare any costs of replacement.
The bees belong to them, you just manage them for a fee.

The fee of £250 equates to £10 per hour if you spend 25 hours p/a per colony (to include travel time)

It's a really difficult equation - the people who own the hive want to make money in order to fund the upkeep of the garden, the beekeeper, quite reasonably, wants to be fairly recompensed for his work. Balancing the deal so both parties meet their expected remuneration is not going to be easy ... and the risks are clear on both sides of the arrangement:

1. The beekeeper does all the work and then the Hive owner pulls the plug on the arrangement.
2. The beekeeper is incompetent and/or the weather is lousy and the honey crop is poor.

The going rate for putting your hives on someone else's property has always been a pound of honey per hive. In these circumstances the beekeeper provides everything ... and takes the risks - but their exposure is pretty limited at a pound of honey per hive - even in the worst year it's unlikely you could not find that amount of honey. But .. you are faced with the capital cost of the equipment.

To be perfectly honest, unless I was looking to assist a charity, in the OP's circumstances I would walk away from the opportunity ... the fact that the hive owner wants to make money out of the operation rings alarm bells - even at the rates SIPA is suggesting the risks for the beekeeper are quite extensive - I don't think anyone on here who manages hives for a third party have anything like an arrangement where you pay the hive owner... which probably tells you something !

 

[sipa]

The quoted "going rate" sucks, and isn't relevent where the owner wants to make money.

That's exactly why I put those figures on it.
The owner wants to make money at the beekeepers expense !
They either pay a decent rate or do it themselves.

 

[Garry R]

I have been asked by a resident's association to look after their couple of beehives this year after the previous beekeeper gave up beekeeping at the end of last year. I'll be paying for all costs including treatments/feed/wax/extraction/jarring/labelling etc during the year, and it's a bit of a drive away. I already sell my own honey, so was thinking for every 1/2 lb jar of honey their hives produce, they get £1 as a way of 'renting' the hives and bees off them, or should we follow a different model? We do spring, summer and heather extractions so even at £1 per jar I'm estimating that they may get almost £200 per hive each year, but is that enough? I'm trying to protect myself from the likes of last year where we got very little summer honey, and if I pay a flat fee of perhaps £200 per hive or more I could end up out of pocket after all the effort.

 

[Garry R]

I have been asked by a resident's association to look after their couple of beehives this year after the previous beekeeper gave up beekeeping at the end of last year. I'll be paying for all costs including treatments/feed/wax/extraction/jarring/labelling etc during the year, and it's a bit of a drive away. I already sell my own honey, so was thinking for every 1/2 lb jar of honey their hives produce, they get £1 as a way of 'renting' the hives and bees off them, or should we follow a different model? We do spring, summer and heather extractions so even at £1 per jar I'm estimating that they may get almost £200 per hive each year, but is that enough? I'm trying to protect myself from the likes of last year where we got very little summer honey, and if I pay a flat fee of perhaps £200 per hive or more I could end up out of pocket after all the effort.

This reminds me of the old Scottish farmer and the tax man - read on.


Willie McKay, an elderly Scottish farmer, received a letter from the Department for Work & Pensions stating that they suspected he was not paying his employees the statutory minimum wage and they would send an inspector to interview them.

On the appointed day, the inspector turned up. "Tell me about your staff," he asked Willie.

“Well," said Willie, "There's the farm hand, I pay him £240 a week, and he has a free cottage.

Then there's the housekeeper. She gets £190 a week, along with free board and lodging.

There's also the half-wit. He works a 16 hour day, does 90% of the work, earns about £25 a week along with a bottle of whisky and, as a special treat, occasionally gets to sleep with my wife."

"That's disgraceful,” said the inspector, "I need to interview the half-wit."

"That'll be me then," said Willie.

 

[Mlfbah]

Thanks again all. These replies aren't very encouraging, and the arrangement is probably more complicated than I first thought. There is a part of me that wants to be helpful after them reaching out, but managing another out-apiary under these circumstances is probably more hassle than it's worth. I'd be better off setting up another out-apiary of my own and not be answerable to a group that has little understanding of beekeeping and what's involved. I'll suggest some one of themselves trains up and takes over instead.

 

[oxnatbees]

I came across a similar situation where an allotment association wanted someone to look after their hives after their beekeeper retired due to extreme old age. The location was awkward.

As soon as money changes hands you or they are under contractual obligations. This allotment association has a rep for being very difficult to deal with (and I know this despite living 10 miles away!)

I offered to train them for free. They agreed and then didn't respond a couple of times. Basically they were looking for someone to sort out their problem for them. I walked away.

 

[Macbear]

A lot of good advice has already been given. One consideration is hive equipment, I don't think that this has been picked up. If good practice is to refresh Brood frames every 3 years, exchange floors and Brood Boxes annually, for example, who owns what? Add to this replacement of broken/damaged items especially, if you were to put in better quality/new items, who would "own" these? Add to that, it is assumed that supers will be yours, and any QE used during the year likewise - so, if for some reason the arrangement broke down during the summer how could the hives be satisfactorily restored to the original condition?
Maybe, an alternative arrangement is for you to buy the "apiary" from them. Thence, if the arrangement terminates you can remove the hives or sell back to them at a fair price. An ongoing agreed fee per pound/kilo could give them a modest revenue stream.
It looks as if they are in a bit of a hole. Are you their only rescuer? They've seemingly started a small project with good intentions, but failed to plan for a key element [a beekeeper]. Without a beekeeper, their project is duff. I would be concerned about entering any sort of contract with any party who fails to plan including worst case scenarios.

 

[Markthebuilder]

The most generous offer I would make would be to look after bees and keep all produce, then donate back xx% of any profits any losses carried forward to next year

 

[hemo]

£10 an hour no thanks, one has to get out of bed but wouldn't leave the house for such a paltry sum . The owners haven't really thought about this
If one is going to manage them then it's going to be a £30 at hour rate at least for time,travel etc . As for supplying equipment then these costs are borne by the owner.