wanted - £25k to breed black bees

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domino said:
Black Bees have a rather fetishistic following and are bestowed with magical powers.

If only pure black bees can be breed in isolation from the rest of the environment I'd question the sustainability of that.

I do agree endlessly importing bees isn't an answer and it's a safe bet small hive beetle will land here via that route.

I do think more time and money spent on educating and encouraging beekeepers to improve their local stock would probably have a longer term benefit overall.
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:iagree: :iagree:
 
Certainly if Phil can orchestrate the generation of a sustainable breeding pool of high quality black bees, then it can only be a good thing and good luck to him. His "expert" comment just confuses me, and could refer to queen rearing or scientific expertise among other possibilities, but maybe my confusion is just that he appears to have suddenly become a born again conventional beekeeper. The truth is to have much chance of meaningful success he will need to engage positively with all sorts of beekeepers and probably find a lot more than £25k.
 
domino said:
Black Bees have a rather fetishistic following and are bestowed with magical powers.

If only pure black bees can be breed in isolation from the rest of the environment I'd question the sustainability of that.

I do agree endlessly importing bees isn't an answer and it's a safe bet small hive beetle will land here via that route.

I do think more time and money spent on educating and encouraging beekeepers to improve their local stock would probably have a longer term benefit overall.
Click to expand...

You could put in "Carniolian, Ligurian Greek, Hybrid, bastardised bees, Buckfast" or in fact any other type of bee in that statement and it would be true.

Small hive beetle will probably arrive in a container of plants imported from Holland.. not with bees.

I have my own conspiracy theory as to the point of entrance where Varroa mite came into the UK and it was not too far from Cockington/Torquay!

YET Another sensible thread turned into a mudslinging match by the ..."Carniolian, Ligurian Greek, Hybrid, bastardised bees, Buckfast" Taliband?
 
icanhopit said:
YET Another sensible thread turned into a mudslinging match by the ..."Carniolian, Ligurian Greek, Hybrid, bastardised bees, Buckfast" Taliband?
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I don't understand this.
 
I thought the black bee was the native in the UK & Ireland. Unlike the UK, while there are plenty of the other Buckfast, Carnolian, etc., in Ireland the vast majority of hives are populated with the native black variety. Personally, I don't know anyone who does not have these, so there are plenty of reasonably "pure" hives around here. Of course, their genetic purity is very questionable, but I still don't see the need to do what this guy is proposing, unless he plans on spending the money buying colonies from areas like here and releasing them across the SW.

Realistically, the money would be better spent on identifying bees with good hygiene, i.e. that remove Varroa, since that's really the only chance for them to survive in the wild.
 
Hivemaker. said:
Not if they are mated with other Buckfasts, no more than any of the other sub species if they are mated with their own kind.



Nothing like what Mike Palmer is doing, if PC was put in charge of Mikes operation it would be akin to the killing fields.
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That's not what I meant ... though you probably knew :icon_204-2: .. what my meaning was, just to make my point clear, is that in their own ways they are both seeking to improve the local bee population and their bees by maintaining localised colonies. Much as you do with your Buckfasts.

And I take your point that Buckies bred with Buckies are fine ... the problem that most of us have is that we cannot easily guarantee that a second or third generation Buckfast in our location is going to find another Buckie mate ...

Even Mike Palmer says that he surrounds his mating apiaries with as many of his hives as he can so that he maintains the genes he wants in his bees. Which is fine, if you have the space and isolation to be able to do it .. but ... I live in the middle of an area of very mixed bees at present so it's pot luck or buy in first generation queens - which is always an option.
 
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pargyle said:
And I take your point that Buckies bred with Buckies are fine ... the problem that most of us have is that we cannot easily guarantee that a second or third generation Buckfast in our location is probably not going to find another Buckie mate ...
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So this only applies to Buckfast, yes? as you can easily guarantee that an Italian, Carniolan, AMM ect, ect, will find only others of there own kind to mate with so ensuring no problems, or anything other than Buckfast cross breeding won't cause any problems,....yes?.....is this what your saying.
 
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My experience of bees - both my own and others - is that unless you cull the aggressive ones asap - like the Inquisition used to do - you are only storing up trouble for the next mating.

I think breeding the native bee is a great idea. But it will ONLY work in most of the UK when you have masses and masses of queens to distribute and a reason for keepers to adopt them. (Isolated peninsulars and islands don't count)

BIBBA singularly fail to do either, have failed to do it and have no plans to do it.

So all talk of resurrecting AMM bees across the UK is just talk unless backed up with a breeding program and very cheap queens to make them irresistible for other beekeepers to take up. Otherwise they will diluted by crossbreeding in a couple of generations back to where we are now.

The only thing to do that is queen rearing on an epic scale and LOTS OF MONEY.

As there are some 50 other beekeepers within a 5 mile radius of me that shows the scale of the issue on a local level. Think of London.. Or Birmingham. Or Manchester..Thousand of beekeepers. An estimated 200k colonies plus in the UK.. All to be requeened in a rolling program over say 10 years...

Anyone got a spare £2-£5 million plus a subsidy of 20,000 queens sold at £5 each? For 10 years?

And the side effect is to wipe out commercial queen production in the UK as they cannot compete - or use them to provide the queens..

It's neither simple. easy nor cheap. The BBKA know that which is why they piously say "no imports " and do nothing about it.

Rant over.
 
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Problem is, unless you do II or have isolated mating, you have very little chance of keeping anything pure, even so-called locally adapted bees will normally be within reach of some genetically different drones. So whatever you start with, after a few generations you have no idea what you will end up with in anyway.


So unless beekeepers all started working together (fat chance) with a common goal, as far as I'm concerned all these preservation projects are highly unlikely to work. All you need is one guy in the middle of it all to bring in some different queens and all the work is undone. No point moaning about it it is what it is and is highly unlikely to change. Importation is a reality like the weather or the Referee in a rugby match, you have to accept how it is and adapt to it, complaints will get you nowhere.
 
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Bosleeu said:
Problem is, unless you do II or have isolated mating, you have very little chance of keeping anything pure, even so-called locally adapted bees will normally be within reach of some genetically different drones. So whatever you start with, after a few generations you have no idea what you will end up with in anyway.


So unless beekeepers all started working together (fat chance) with a common goal, as far as I'm concerned all these preservation projects are highly unlikely to work. All you need is one guy in the middle of it all to bring in some different queens and all the work is undone. No point moaning about it it is what it is and is highly unlikely to change. Importation is a reality like the weather or the Referee in a rugby match, you have to accept how it is and adapt to it, complaints will get you nowhere.
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This is what keeps me away from going TF, there's no point going through generations of big losses when you've got someone near by drenching their bees in treatments who'll undo all the work with a few drones.
 
I didn't realise bee race wars was an actual thing.

Making general bee improvement a larger part of beekeeping education would make the overall quality of bees kept the UK better.

Obviously buying in bees to improve your stock is a ligit strategy but I've met people better education could reduce how often that's required.
 
It would shock you to know how much money was spent unlocking the genetic code of the Honey Bee.
 
Problem is, unless you do II or have isolated mating, you have very little chance of keeping anything pure, even so-called locally adapted bees will normally be within reach of some genetically different drones. So whatever you start with, after a few generations you have no idea what you will end up with in anyway.

Which is pretty much what I do with my Amms and my NZ bees... and Hivemaker et al do with theirs!

Yeghes da
 
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