VSH Bees. The Future? or a False Dawn?

[Beefriendly]

It is the one thing about beekeeping that makes me feel bad. I have varroa, just not enough to cause problems for my bees. I would much prefer that beekeepers worldwide were using resistant genetics and getting off the treatment treadmill.

Two cases spring to mind. In the UK we had Ron Hoskins (?) Swindon resistant bees. That were later found to have lots of varroa but a benign strain of DWV which in effect meant they weren't being killed despite having varroa. Where quite swarmy and (I'm told )aggressive, not ideal.

In France (near Avignon) they hived several feral colonies that had existed for a few years without any treatment. Kept them in the same apiary and treated half against varroa. The treated hives produced nearly 2x the amount of honey vs the untreated.
Be interesting to see what happens to your honey yields should you treat a few vs untreated.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Varroa resistance is present in Mellifera though admittedly at low frequency. My first queen that demonstrated resistance showed multiple A.M. Mellifera traits. Resistance is also present in Carnica as shown by current breeding programs. I did not bring in the Beeweaver queens until 2015 when hive beetles were starting to cause problems. Also, the swarms of AHB were found along the gulf coast which is about 300 miles from here. We will eventually have them here but for the time being they are not moving very far or very fast.

I won't try to address the issue of beekeepers losing too may colonies. There are multiple causes including use of mite susceptible genetics along with some novel disease issues.

I empathize with having too many beekeeping neighbors. It puts quite a drag on the process of stabilizing resistant stock.

I think if more and more beekeepers clubbed together then the stability of the resistant stock would be better .
Over here there's an association in North Wales that have been varroa treatment free for years every member contributes to the cause .
Perhaps it's time for more British associations to get together and share data, knowledge / breeding stock.
Our association have also started a treatment free program, I've yet to see the results and i have my concerns.

 

[bobba]

I think there are a few fundamental problems regarding varroa resistant bees.

Firstly, if bees invest more effort in the resistant behaviors, that that is effort treated bees could use making honey. One of the behaviors is apparently pulling out infected larvae. And apparently the foundress can still go on to infect another cell. So even if you have resistant bees, then treating could potentially still give you an increase in yield.

Secondly, the varroa can adapt too. If we all had the same veroha resistant bees and the varroa adapted to counter the hygienic behavior, then all the efforts could be for nothing. Having a greater diversity of bee stock would help counter varroa adaptions.

There is one aspect of treatment that is rally discussed. And that is when organisms adapt to resist a toxin, the adaption is usually detrimental to the organism. So if you take pyrethroids for example. To my understanding resistance is not uncommon now in UK populations. However this resistance is likely to have come at some cost to the veroha, possibly handy-capping them a little bit.

This is an analogy I heard that explains this effect. Imagine a WW1 solder fighting in a battle. But then gas is used, so now he must ware a mask. Then a new gas is used so he must cover all his skin with a suit. Each time he counters the gas he becomes less effective.

So the dirty-treaters out there (myself included) might actually be helping everyone.

However I think the biggest argument to stop treating, and I have never heard this mentioned. Is the fact that parsaties and hosts will usually find a balance. Like with viruses the parasites will evolve to be less destructive to their hosts. So we might not have to bother with resistant bees, just wait for the varroa to become less destructive.

So my ultimate plan looks like this. Breed varroa resistant bees, and store them in a lab. All stop treating until the balance is found. Then resume treatment and hammer them with everything we have got. Once they are multiply resistant, then we pull the bees out the Lab to face vastly weekended Verona.

I assume every one agrees - so we all start tomorrow.... right?

 

[Beefriendly]

So the dirty-treaters out there (myself included) might actually be helping everyone.

However I think the biggest argument to stop treating, and I have never heard this mentioned. Is the fact that parsaties and hosts will usually find a balance.

Problem is varroa jumped hosts to mellifera. No evolution over millions of years to find that balance with it's new host. So far less than 100 years.

 

[SDM]

I

However I think the biggest argument to stop treating, and I have never heard this mentioned. Is the fact that parsaties and hosts will usually find a balance. Like with viruses the parasites will evolve to be less destructive to their hosts. So we might not have to bother with resistant bees, just wait for the varroa to become less destructive.

?

The problem there is that destroying the host is part of varroa's transmission strategy. As a colony is weakened, there is always others around to rob them and help spread mites.
When killing the host just means new healthy hosts come to you, there's no pressure to find a balance.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I think there are a few fundamental problems regarding varroa resistant bees.



So my ultimate plan looks like this. Breed varroa resistant bees, and store them in a lab. All stop treating until the balance is found. Then resume treatment and hammer them with everything we have got. Once they are multiply resistant, then we pull the bees out the Lab to face vastly weekended Verona.

I assume every one agrees - so we all start tomorrow.... right?

And while all this is happening we and various industries use Chinese honey

 

[Walrus]

The problem there is that destroying the host is part of varroa's transmission strategy. As a colony is weakened, there is always others around to rob them and help spread mites.
When killing the host just means new healthy hosts come to you, there's no pressure to find a balance.

On honey bees varroa is becoming a parasitoid. There is also the relationship with viruses; it’s not just about the mite but the mite/virus combo.

 

[Buzzlodge]

:it’s not just about the mite but the mite/virus combo.

Exactly. Its not a simple bee/varroa equation. If bees come to terms with some or all of the viruses, the effects of 'varroa' will decrease considerably.

 

[bobba]

I agree, there is no guarantee that the mites/bees will find "the balance". All the bees could be killed before that happens. And it could take a very long time to find the balance. And there is no guarantee that the mites will evolve to become less destructive to bees.

But it is possible!

So don't worry guys, I am aware of the many short falls of my over simplified plan. I know it is by no means a guaranteed path to success. But I truly believe elements of it have merit. So I rest assured that you have all started the plan.....right?

I do think if we are going to win the ongoing battle with varroa it will require coordinated country wide action.

SDM - you say "The problem there is that destroying the host is part of varroa's transmission strategy"

But what if the varroa spread as you say killing all the bees. But low and behold there are a few hives left with less destructive mites. Then they spread with the bees to repopulate. Do varroa destroy their previous host before infecting our bees, or was a balance found?

Regarding the, our bees have not had millions of years to adapt point. What is to say the mites did not jump to their previous host, say 5000 years ago. When this occurred it could have triggered a similar situation as with our bees now.

The mite/virus combo factor just complicates things to another level. But remember the viruses and mites have had hosts for a long time. And they would not be here if they had destroyed all their hosts. So although the mites/bees/viruses all die scenario is a possibility - plenty of things go extinct after all. I still believe a balance would most likely be found. But "balanced bees" or "naturally evolved VSH bees", may have traits unfavorable to keepers.

I am sorry if it seems like I am trying to shoot down every argument against me. You all make valid points - and you could all be right. I think the mites/viruses/treatment situation is a very unusual evolutionary situation. Its a complex struggle for survival between multiple organisms overlooked by beekeepers. So I for one cannot say for sure what will happen.

What about Africa, do they treat there? Or have their bees developed VSH? What is their temperament like? Or does anyone know of anywhere they have mites, but don't treat?

 

[Fusion_power]

African beekeepers - particularly the southeast region of Africa - made a choice to let the chips fall where they may. In less than 2 years, the colonies still alive were all mite tolerant. You can easily find several articles in a net search that document this.

If we had 10,000 years, I could see a host/parasite balance being reached. Then again, maybe we already have a host that can effectively manage varroa. Endless speculation is one of the weaknesses beekeepers tend to have. Sometimes it is better to do something besides put bandaids on problems.

 

[SDM]

African beekeepers - particularly the southeast region of Africa - made a choice to let the chips fall where they may. In less than 2 years, the colonies still alive were all mite tolerant. You can easily find several articles in a net search that document this.

.

And all of those articles will tell you that they did not experience anything like the losses suffered by European bees as scutellata and Capensis were already resistant.
This combined with the absence of a virulent form of DWV meant they never needed to treat . None of the ways these bees exist with varroa were evolved this century , they already existed , just as they did.in the Brazilian scutellata.

 

[SDM]

I

But what if the varroa spread as you say killing all the bees. But low and behold there are a few hives left with less destructive mites. Then they spread with the bees to repopulate. Do varroa destroy their previous host before infecting our bees, or was a balance found?

It's not a contact.killer. an infected hive lives for a season or two before collapsing. Just like effective biological weapons, you don't want to kill to quickly, you want the host to live long enough to spread the virus. Varroa's cycle.does this nicely already, so no reason to think a less virulent haplotype would become dominant and no evidence of it that I'm aware of with the Korean and Japanese haplotypes.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

What about Africa, do they treat there? Or have their bees developed VSH? What is their temperament like? Or does anyone know of anywhere they have mites, but don't treat?

African bees are a totally different kettle of fish - most areas have never really had varroa in any great numbers, it may be a lot to do with Scutellata/Adansoni being naturally migratory bees, allowed to swarm or abscond as they desire. Have spoken to beekeepers over a wide part of the continent and in a lot of cases the existence of varroa isn't even acknowledged, I think the most amusing comment I heard whilst in conference with the forestry minister of Lesotho, the chief beekeeping officer of the country and an Algerian expert who was working as her assistant who piped up 'I saw a varroa once' (which was the sum total of the varroa discussion)
You should also look at Professor Steve Martin's work on DWV type B and it's prevalence in the Southern hemisphere

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

African beekeepers - particularly the southeast region of Africa - made a choice to let the chips fall where they may..

No they didn't - they never had the problem to start with

 

[Finman]

And all of those articles will tell you that they did not experience anything like the losses suffered by European bees as scutellata and Capensis were already resistant.
This combined with the absence of a virulent form of DWV meant they never needed to treat . None of the ways these bees exist with varroa were evolved this century , they already existed , just as they did.in the Brazilian scutellata.

Part of story is, that on areas, where Africanized bee exists, there are not any more hobby beekeeping. So told a lady from Texas University.

Bees can follow the beekeeper one kilometre.
.

 

[Finman]

.
I tried to look what is happening with Gotlanf's resistant bees.
An AFB hive has been found there this summer.

 

[Fusion_power]

No they didn't - they never had the problem to start with

Archive.org has a copy from 2008. It is a good read about the early stages with varroa in South Africa. Note that there were losses and it was several years before tolerance was widely established. I submit that they did have a problem but the way they dealt with it was entirely different than the way it was handled in Europe or the U.S. I also concede that African bee races are much more likely to be resistant to varroa than any European race.

https://web.archive.org/web/2008122...08082007-153050/unrestricted/dissertation.pdf

Also available on this site:
https://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/27094/dissertation.pdf?sequence=1

I particularly liked the "treadmill" comment in the article.

 

[Ian123]

Yes but they site tolerance building in capensis and scuttelata not European honey bee one would also imagine the early losses could also be put down to South Africa’s more developed honey industry and the European honey being present. Very similar to what I saw in some Caribbean islands, now reliant on ahb

 

[Fusion_power]

I just can't get past how fusion has managed a successful varroa breeding programme virtually by accident and maintained whatever genes control the process with just a handful of hives.

I was really fortunate to identify a swarm queen in 2004 that was significantly mite resistant. Even more important, I was able to purchase queens from Purvis that were significantly mite resistant and use them to produce drones to mate with queens raised from my mite resistant swarm queen. The combination turned out to be significantly better than either line alone. Also should note that I lost several colonies in the early years before the resistance traits stabilized. Since the early days, I've brought in stock from Carpenter Apiaries and from Beeweaver to maintain genetic diversity and to incorporate some hive beetle resistance. Carpenter's queens turned out to be highly synergistic with my own bees in that colonies with crossbred queens did not develop problems with varroa. This suggests that my bees were already demonstrating significant levels of allogrooming though I have no way at this point to prove it. The reason for bringing in Beeweaver queens as has previously been stated was to incorporate some hive beetle resistance.

So to answer this, I did not so much come up with a breeding programme as to take advantage of the genetics available to me. The first real break was when I found that single queen from a swarm caught in 2004. Without her, I would still be on the treatment bandwagon.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Yes but they site tolerance building in capensis and scuttelata not European honey bee one would also imagine the early losses could also be put down to South Africa’s more developed honey industry and the European honey being present. Very similar to what I saw in some Caribbean islands, now reliant on ahb

Yes - South Africa does not equal the whole of Southern Africa by a long chalk, most probably the mortalities were concentrated on the larger commercial outfits in South Africa and down to introduced European type strains rather than Scutellata. It was never an issue in Lesotho and doesn't seem to warrant a mention in most places. Resistance didn't develop' overnight as Fusion suggests, it was there in the native bee all the time