Nucs to full size brood box

[grahambee]

I have a 6 frame nuc with brood on 5 frames (standard national) if the weather is nice over the weekend I want to transfer these into a full size brood box. What is the best way as in where to put the extra frames either side of the colony or all on one side ?

As I was looking for the best way for optimal build-up also would it be a idea to put some 1 to 1 sugar syrup on

 

[oliver90owner]

One frame either side. Simple enough?
Have they needed feeding? Do they need feeding?

 

[beebreeder]

One frame either side. Simple enough?
Have they needed feeding? Do they need feeding?

I did exactly this tonight, it was cold and wet but the bees were bursting out of the box, I have given the a feed to encourage them to draw out the new foundation, if you have a crop available it is too cold for the bees to forage for any period of time.

 

[itma]

I have a 6 frame nuc with brood on 5 frames (standard national) if the weather is nice over the weekend I want to transfer these into a full size brood box. What is the best way as in where to put the extra frames either side of the colony or all on one side ?

As I was looking for the best way for optimal build-up also would it be a idea to put some 1 to 1 sugar syrup on

OK.
First thing I would wonder is whether there is enough laying space in there, with brood already on 5 frames.
If HMQ runs short of usable space, she'll be away with half the workers.
Have you got any drawn comb to give them? That would be the quickest way of reducing the pressure, if there is pressure on space.

Otherwise - need to draw comb. With uncertain foraging conditions, feed strong, not light, syrup - use 2 weights of sugar to one weight of water.
But beware giving syrup if there's little or no space.
But without much stores in there, also beware them running short of food in bad weather.
Got a spare stores frame?

Keep them warm, maybe even put the inspection board in.
Give them 'winter' top insulation.
Use a dummy board to bookend the colony.
Fill the void beyond with something, like some blocks of Kingspan.
If you want to try something different, cover your dummy board with aluminium kitchen foil, to act as a reflector for radiant heat (like the foil on the Kingspan).
Drawing comb needs warmth, and the weather is cool. Any help makes the job easier and thus quicker.

Where to put new frames? One either side of the brood frames. The slot between brood and stores is prime position for getting comb drawn.
Where best to put a frame of drawn comb (if you have a frame to give them)? My guess would be on the 'outside' end of the brood, opposite to the stores, so it was available as immediate brood space, without taking that prime comb-drawing slot. If you have the drawn comb, you could also put a foundation frame outside it, but don't expect it to be drawn quickly.

What did I miss?
The best position for a frame feeder? One end or the other?

/ Oh, the forecast for down South is a pretty wretched weekend's weather.

 

[Meg]

itma,

Why 2:1 sugar to water syrup? Surely the need is to be able to use the syrup immediately and produce wax, not to store it or need to bring in water to dilute it?

Interested.

Meg

 

[Polyanwood]

with Meg

 

[itma]

Don't the bees manage quite well on honey through the winter? Consuming their supplies to generate heat, with little or no additional water input?

If they need the food, they'll consume it - they'll only store excess. And then they'll consume it next week if they need to. They will then have that option. You just have to ensure that they don't fill all the available comb as they build up some stores.
But having enough to store further 'motivates' the bees to burn energy fast in making comb. They'd build comb on a flow, not during a gap.
When a swarm draws lots of lovely comb quickly, they are running on the honey that they have stuffed themselves with before leaving. They aren't worried about water supplies.

What makes management tricky is that this sounds to be a big nuc without much stores. And the weather is cr@p. Its a delicate balance, and it needs careful monitoring.
Give them a frame of comb and a frame of stores and life gets much easier!


Weak syrup is generally fed in Spring, in my understanding, because brood raising requires the extra water.
And its not quickly storable. It needs a large area of empty comb plus bee-effort to evaporate it down. This colony is short of comb for that task. And you'd rather they didn't waste effort on evaporation airflow.
Plus, the more water in what the bees consume, the more they need to poo. In bad weather, that's not a good way to go. Which is why when they overwinter on honey, they can hold on for months.

For a colony without much stores, needing to draw comb, and in poor weather, my understanding is that its calories that they are likely to be closest to the edge on.

Any nectar that foragers bring in during brief breaks in the weather is going to be pretty dilute right now. So I doubt there's any shortage of water for the colony, and thus I don't think there's any need to feed dilute syrup.


The simple rule I was taught was, feed strong syrup - except for Spring brood stimulation, when thin syrup is called for.
Is that too simplistic? Seems reasonable to me.

 

[Finman]

itma,

Why 2:1 sugar to water syrup? Surely the need is to be able to use the syrup immediately and produce wax, not to store it or need to bring in water to dilute it?

Interested.

Meg

the weathers in UK are abnormal. Not much idea to push water into hives.

Sugar to direct consumption. That is not good beekeeping. I put there at least one week food if i give and it is 5 kg sugar. Then 5 kg water into the hive...of which bees ventilate in a hurry half away.
Note that brood cycle is 3 weeks. Two days game means nothing to bees. It is only a shock.


I look London forecast. Day temp is under 10C.

 

[Finman]

Don't the bees manage quite well on honey through the winter? Consuming their supplies to generate heat, with little or no additional water input?

If they need the food, they'll consume it - they'll only store excess. And then they'll consume it next week if they need to. They will then have that option. You just have to ensure that they don't fill all the available comb as they build up some stores.
But having enough to store further 'motivates' the bees to burn energy fast in making comb. They'd build comb on a flow, not during a gap.
When a swarm draws lots of lovely comb quickly, they are running on the honey that they have stuffed themselves with before leaving. They aren't worried about water supplies.

What makes management tricky is that this sounds to be a big nuc without much stores. And the weather is cr@p. Its a delicate balance, and it needs careful monitoring.
Give them a frame of comb and a frame of stores and life gets much easier!


Weak syrup is generally fed in Spring, in my understanding, because brood raising requires the extra water.
And its not quickly storable. It needs a large area of empty comb plus bee-effort to evaporate it down. This colony is short of comb for that task. And you'd rather they didn't waste effort on evaporation airflow.
Plus, the more water in what the bees consume, the more they need to poo. In bad weather, that's not a good way to go. Which is why when they overwinter on honey, they can hold on for months.

For a colony without much stores, needing to draw comb, and in poor weather, my understanding is that its calories that they are likely to be closest to the edge on.

Any nectar that foragers bring in during brief breaks in the weather is going to be pretty dilute right now. So I doubt there's any shortage of water for the colony, and thus I don't think there's any need to feed dilute syrup.


The simple rule I was taught was, feed strong syrup - except for Spring brood stimulation, when thin syrup is called for.
Is that too simplistic? Seems reasonable to me.

this writing is pure sense.

Not bad to think a little bit when you are going to feed the hive.
.

 

[MandF]

If you put the syrup above the CB (or feeder board for the pedants), then dont the bees treat that as general forage anyway - although preferable for them as it is so close?

In which case they will only take what they need, and if they need more space to store it then that will prompt them to draw foundation?

I understand the logic of feeding 2:1 syrup, but if they have foundation in the hive they wont abscond due to overfilling with stores, and in fact they are more likely to do this with 2:1 syrup because they can store this immediately?

I am wondering if there is a difference for the 1:1 or 2:1 rules depending on where the syrup is, ie in a frame feeder (so in the hive) or above the CB (so outside the hive)?

 

[oliver90owner]

Honey is stored by honey bees for later use, nectar is food for immediate consumption if available. Nectar is only reduced to honey moisture if there is a surplus.

A minority will always want to encourage storage of sugar syrup (to just within the legal limit for sucrose in honey), so they can sell refined sugar as 'honey' (in inverted commas because it is not 'proper' honey). These are those that are trying to cheat their customers, by selling 'processed' refined sucrose and would do anything possible to 'bend' the honey regulations as far as posible, thus demeaning the unique and well-respected product from our bees. That is right isn't it MandF? (Post #47 in this thread shows this clearly enough, I think : http://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=16856&page=5)

If the bees are brooding, they will need more water than that in 2:1. At this time of the year, they can get out to collect water, but that does not hold true if the weather is very cold, very wet and very windy - as it can be, earlier in the year, for days on end.

Early brooding of a tiny patch of brood (in comparison to the spring expansion) can be catered for by the bees. This may be the way colony expansion is limited during the winter to a small amount of brooding - as a sort of self-regulating system. That is why brooding can be accelerated by intervention of the beekeeper, providing a stimulating 1:1 feed to 'encourage' the bees into thinking brooding conditions have arrived.

 

[MandF]

Your point about storage of syrup is irrelevant, because both 2:1 and 1:1 syrup can and will be stored. I also dont personally know ANYONE who "encourages storage of sugar syrup", do you?

But back on point, you now seem to be saying that in poor weather (cold, wet, windy just like it was here in London yesterday) then 1:1 syrup is a better feed?

What I was seeking clarification on was whether, actually, 1:1 syrup above the CB is the wrong option when you have moved a 5 frame nuc into a hive, and have foundation?

My instinct is telling me I want 2 things to happen in this situation - I want them to expand quickly, and I want them to draw foundation. 1:1 feed simulates a flow and will encourage them to expand the hive (therefore draw foundation). 2:1 doesnt do this as readily?

To produce wax the bees need to be saturated with honey/sugar, they can do this more readily with 1:1 syrup than 2:1 as they dont need to dilute it?

 

[grahambee]

i think that the general conscenious is that the additional frames should be added either side of the colony when put into a full size brood box. i have not got drawn cone so will be using foundation.

as for feeding i think this is going to be a ask 10 bee keepers a question and get 12 answers. i was on the understanding that one to one was for spring and 2 to 1 was for autumn, but reading peoples posts i can see benefits from both types of dilution.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

As far as I am aware, weak syrup is more easily assimilated by the bees than thick syrup, so thin syrup should be used. Sugar in. Wax out.

I also dont personally know ANYONE who "encourages storage of sugar syrup", do you? Yes. Autumn feed. That's why thick syrup is utilised at that time. Also if I were preparing a nuc for sale for example, today, some stores of thick syrup would not go amiss if they're light on stores.

I said last week I was fed up with the weather. I still am!

 

[MandF]

I meant specifically to take a crop, which is what RAB was referring to, and still missing the point about.

By attempting to be clever he confused the issue being discussed, and that is whether 1:1 or 2:1 syrup should be used now, in the spring.

I was also told 1:1 in spring (to encourage build up AND encourage comb drawing), and 2:1 in autumn (for them to store for winter food as it requires less processing).

 

[MandF]

I just got an email from the NBU, it says;

"With the on-going poor weather, there is a real risk of bee colonies starving. Please check for stores in the colony and if in any doubt feed your bees. You should feed with either a fondant or a thin syrup"

So they are also of the opinion that a 1:1 syrup is appropriate this time of the year, even for colonies low on stores.

 

[Peaches]

I am new to your forum, but I have been keeping bees for about 15 years. I would say that in the Spring, to stimulate brood building, use 1:1 sugar syrup. The bees think that a honey flow is beginning and they need lots of bodies to harvest all the nectar and pollen they can.

In the late Fall and early Winter, the mixture should be 2:1 for the maintenance of the colony to provide energy. However, I get around the feeding in the Fall and Winter by leaving the bees enough honey to carry them through until spring.

My reasoning is this: The bees make the honey for their own consumption. They know what they need for nutrition. The honey is what they need. Sugar is man made and doesn't have the amino acids, vitamins, and minerals that they require for their health.

Sugar syrup is used only in emergency situations such as, if the Winter is longer and colder than normal and the bees have used up all their stores. In this situation, then we beekeepers need to do what it takes to save our bees.

Thank you for listening.