Insulated Hives?

[BangerterHarp]

In the 2018 national honey show videos, Ben Harden, in his talk " bees in winter" is of the opinion that non insulated hives help bees with their water needs and in questions at the end says he would not keep bees in poly hives. My hives are mainly wood ( aesthetic reasons) with two inches of celotex in the roof. Not suffered any winter losses in the last few years, and build up in spring does not seem a lot different to the two poly hives I have.

I'll have a watch of Mr. Hardens video later if I can find it. Thanks for sharing.

 

[BangerterHarp]

I don't think the research has ever been done. We make assumptions that insulation is better for the bees and it may well be. But I'd like to see some real science and stats on winter bees survival +/- insulation.
I know quite a few successful beekeepers who don't bother with insulation and am beginning to question my own thoughts about it's benefits.
Although I think its benefits regarding spring build up and overwintering nucs is pretty solid.

I read an article some time back and I hope I will be able to link to it shortly and share here. It was a very limited study with one insulated Langstroth hive versus one non-insulated Langstroth hive and the data was similar to that included in Tom Seeley's book carried out by Derek Mitchell I do believe. I have seen a difference in insulated versus non but perhaps its because we have some winters down to -30*f(-34*c). I am also using quilt tops but am very interested to see the difference between a quilted cover versus just a solid insulated cover.

 

[BangerterHarp]

Besides, if we took a holiday to celebrate every time we screwed over an indigenous people, we'd never get anything done.

Not sure if you and your buddy in Wales just hate me in particular or is it all Americans in general. Regardless , I look forward to posts from you and he that will contribute to furthering our education of bees and beekeeping if you care to share.

 

[BangerterHarp]

https://semaponline.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/FAF-insulated-hive.pdf

This is the SEMAP study by Four Acres Farm on the insulated versus non-insulated hive

 

[Fusion_power]

Quoting from Mobus: "In fact, the bees were dehydrated and had flown en mass for reason of dire thirst! And, coming from a warm cluster without having to contribute to heat generation, they chilled by the thousands before reaching their goal: water."

But that quote is distinctly out of context and should be brought more into focus to understand what he documented. He combined 4 strong colonies to produce 2 super strong colonies each in a highly insulated hive. This is an abnormal condition and was meant to elucidate information on an observation by Jeffree that very large and very small colonies suffered inordinate losses during winter. He weighed individual bees and whole colonies to derive the result which is that very large colonies are out of balance. They do not need to consume very much honey in a highly insulated hive to maintain cluster temperature. The result is that they become water starved.

The highly insulated hive was constructed out of polystyrene with floor 30 mm thick and walls and roof 50 mm thick. The hives were put on very accurate scales which showed that no brood was reared during the period investigated and honey consumption was minimal at less than 1 mg per bee per day.

He showed that bees near the outside of the cluster produce most of the heat. Bees in the middle of the cluster lose more water than they produce eventually becoming water deficient. Bees from the middle then cycle to the outside of the cluster where they metabolize enough honey to replenish their water reserves. In a highly insulated hive with a very large cluster, this cycle does not occur. Bees in the middle of the cluster as well as bees on the outside suffer alike from loss of water.

What was interesting was the behavior of small clusters. They consume large amounts of honey to stay warm accumulating fecal matter until dysentery sets in. This is where a highly insulated hive becomes beneficial allowing a small cluster to maintain temperature without triggering dysentery.

 

[user 6228]

Quoting from Mobus: "In fact, the bees were dehydrated and had flown en mass for reason of dire thirst! And, coming from a warm cluster without having to contribute to heat generation, they chilled by the thousands before reaching their goal: water."

But that quote is distinctly out of context and should be brought more into focus to understand what he documented. He combined 4 strong colonies to produce 2 super strong colonies each in a highly insulated hive. This is an abnormal condition and was meant to elucidate information on an observation by Jeffree that very large and very small colonies suffered inordinate losses during winter. He weighed individual bees and whole colonies to derive the result which is that very large colonies are out of balance. They do not need to consume very much honey in a highly insulated hive to maintain cluster temperature. The result is that they become water starved.

The highly insulated hive was constructed out of polystyrene with floor 30 mm thick and walls and roof 50 mm thick. The hives were put on very accurate scales which showed that no brood was reared during the period investigated and honey consumption was minimal at less than 1 mg per bee per day.

He showed that bees near the outside of the cluster produce most of the heat. Bees in the middle of the cluster lose more water than they produce eventually becoming water deficient. Bees from the middle then cycle to the outside of the cluster where they metabolize enough honey to replenish their water reserves. In a highly insulated hive with a very large cluster, this cycle does not occur. Bees in the middle of the cluster as well as bees on the outside suffer alike from loss of water.

What was interesting was the behavior of small clusters. They consume large amounts of honey to stay warm accumulating fecal matter until dysentery sets in. This is where a highly insulated hive becomes beneficial allowing a small cluster to maintain temperature without triggering dysentery.

You cant get anything from the mobius experiment except that alternating high and low conductance stresses colonies.

 

[Poly Hive]

That's probably right Derek.

FP? Very few in the UK have read Mobus, sadly.

PH

 

[BangerterHarp]

Although the Mobius experiment was flawed , is information available about winter water use in relation to ventilation. It seems , not quoting here , that I remember Tom Seeley saying that the condensation on the walls of a hive might possibly be used by the bees as a source of water for the cluster in winter. Not quoting , just wondering if my use of quilt tops is hindering more than helping in this instance?

 

[charlievictorbravo]

just wondering if my use of quilt tops is hindering more than helping in this instance?

The highest temperature in any enclosure will be at the top - convection. If you insulate the crown board/roof of a bee hive, less heat will be lost through the roof but the walls remain uninsulated. That is where you are most likely to find condensation which some people believe is used by the bees as a source of water during the winter.

In their natural enclosure - a hollow tree - Tom Seeley tells us that the bees cover the inside of the enclosure with propolis, which is waterproof. In the very humid atmosphere of a tree-hole, maybe the temperature differential between the wall and the air is still sufficient to produce condensation. I don't know; I'm just speculating. We need a proper study using modern methods to get to the heart of this problem. Where is Dr Samuel Ramsey when you need him?

CVB

 

[BangerterHarp]

It is easy to see the moisture difference inside a hive which has a warm ceiling and cold walls versus a hive like most of mine that are completely insulated but up until this past year I didn't realize the full value of propolis on the walls of the hive. Quite frankly I was rather glad that my Carniolan type bees hadn't gummed it up much but after reading Seeley's latest book I began to wonder if perhaps the only reason they weren't propolising much was because of the ultra smooth walls of the hive. My newest 2 hives were still designed for Langstroth deep frames but I used rough cut lumber for the interior to see if they will propolis it thoroughly . Both have quilts above however so I suppose they won't tell me much about the moisture in the hive unless I run one with a solid top. Either way it's a long time till spring and splits to put in them.

 

[Fusion_power]

You cant get anything from the mobius experiment except that alternating high and low conductance stresses colonies.

Mobus was not investigating insulated hives. He was studying wintering dynamics of a colony of bees. Please understand that I am not trying to counter your assertions regarding insulated hives. I am very much interested in finding out if something is gained by using them. So far, I am reasonably sure that small colonies benefit. I'm not at all certain that large healthy colonies are better off in insulated hives. There might be benefit in some climates, but not others. I would even stipulate that making water available in an insulated hive might make sense if the bees benefit enough. In the end, the bees will determine what works best.

I will contact ABJ and see if they will either make the Mobus article available or permit me to post it here.

 

[BangerterHarp]

Drex , thank you again for recommending the video with Ben Harden on wintering. Lots of interesting study and theory there. I haven't opened my hives in the winter so some new tidbits there to ponder on. There are many details of insulated versus non that I'm sure many of us would like to understand better. I have no doubt there is a proper ratio of insulation versus a given extreme winter temperature relating to individual regions and would make a very interesting study. How much is appropriate for where ?

What Mr. Harden recommends about not insulating does not bear fruit in my climate (for me) but I am very much interested to learn more about water in the hive.

 

[Poly Hive]

Mobus was instrumental in introducing poly to Scotland at the least, if not arguably the UK.

He started iwth mini nucs and then brought from Germany some poly Langstroths (the only frame type then in existence to my knowledge) and introduced a Bee Farmer to them. Said BF was so impressed he imported a container load and began to sell them on.



PH

 

[SDM]

Not sure if you and your buddy in Wales just hate me in particular or is it all Americans in general. Regardless , I look forward to posts from you and he that will contribute to furthering our education of bees and beekeeping if you care to share.

Speaking for myself, neither, its a sentiment many Americans i know share, though in this instance the reference was intended as comic relief.
And if you seriously think it was as dig at your country, it was a far bigger dig at my own.

 

[user 6228]

Mobus was not investigating insulated hives. He was studying wintering dynamics of a colony of bees. Please understand that I am not trying to counter your assertions regarding insulated hives. I am very much interested in finding out if something is gained by using them. So far, I am reasonably sure that small colonies benefit. I'm not at all certain that large healthy colonies are better off in insulated hives. There might be benefit in some climates, but not others. I would even stipulate that making water available in an insulated hive might make sense if the bees benefit enough. In the end, the bees will determine what works best.

I will contact ABJ and see if they will either make the Mobus article available or permit me to post it here.

If the insulated hive is tall enough there will be a level where the water condenses inside the hive, providiing it doesnt leak the water vapour away through top vents/entrances.

 

[Walrus]

As this is the beginners section I’d like to point out that, although choosing a hive type is an important decision that needs careful thought, it is not as super critical as some other aspects of beekeeping. Bees thrive in all manner of hives.

Managing varroa mites and disease are more important in my opinion. Same goes for adequate nutrition (pollen/nectar) and feeding if appropriate. If you want honey then swarm prevention/ control is very important. If you want your beekeeping experience to be pleasant then I’d suggest that the temperament of your bees will be key...which leads on to the wonderful world of raising queens and selection. So much to learn and enjoy!

My nucs are poly as are over half of my hives. My cedar wood hives get some 25mm kingspan/celotex in the top to lessen condensation above the bees. I like both hive types. No harm in trying both, but IMO learning about disease, forage, swarming, strong colonies, good queens etc is more important.

 

[madasafish]

Drex , thank you again for recommending the video with Ben Harden on wintering. Lots of interesting study and theory there. I haven't opened my hives in the winter so some new tidbits there to ponder on. There are many details of insulated versus non that I'm sure many of us would like to understand better. I have no doubt there is a proper ratio of insulation versus a given extreme winter temperature relating to individual regions and would make a very interesting study. How much is appropriate for where ?

What Mr. Harden recommends about not insulating does not bear fruit in my climate (for me) but I am very much interested to learn more about water in the hive.

ALL my hives are insulated.. We have moderate winters - the lowest temepratures in the last decade 2010-11, 2011-12 winters of -16C for a week (at night)..

I have never seen any problems with lack of water.. It does condense on the walls - expecially the North facing corners and run down inside the hives.. In the very cold (for us) winters there were stalactites of ice at the hive corners - coloured light brown - and coming form the hive interior - OMFs closed but leak around edges.


I did comparison tests and insulated hives built up quicker in spring. They also use fewer stores in winter (obviously).

Those with mild winters may not see any differences..

We live in a frost pocket ay 150M altitude with cold air flowing down 100M from the hills to the North and flowing through the hollow of our garden..My greenhouse is in the path of it!

When I did not insulate , I had lots of mildewed combs through damp. Now only the outer farmes are mildewed.. (the bees clean them up in spring)..So condensation inside the hives. (I suppose matchsticks might help..! )

I know two beekeepers with bees at 400meters or more - their bees only survive in any quantity due to insulation (and it is dubious that beekeeping there is viable at all due to lack of access to forage for much of the year.)

BUT: we are in a temperate climate. The winter air is NOT dry.. Frosts result in local ground water freezing/melting/refreezing so some local country roads can have 10cm layers of ice - when not gritted - due to that action over a week..There is barely a week in winter when it does not rain - or snow..

 

[Poly Hive]

We here in the UK need to remember that the North American winters are dry cold, not the wet cold we have.

I couldn't make a snowball in Niagara Falls at minus 16, it just fell apart due to the dryness.

Climatically as I know I keep saying we are miles apart. Some 3000.

PH

 

[Walrus]

We here in the UK need to remember that the North American winters are dry cold, not the wet cold we have.

I couldn't make a snowball in Niagara Falls at minus 16, it just fell apart due to the dryness.

Climatically as I know I keep saying we are miles apart. Some 3000.

PH

Ever been to Seattle?!

 

[Poly Hive]

No, Ontario and saw a bee farm. Niagara falls on a couple of trips and NYC. I was there in Autumn and January. Late Sept temp in Ontario was a very balmy 28C for instance. That's a very rare high summer temperature for me.


Seattle would be some 6000 miles I gather? My latitude is 55.2, London is 51.5, Seattle is 47.6.

Steve? I spent near five years reading the ABJ and Gleanings, some 40 years worth in total and I am as sure as I can be in my mind that there are pretty few similarities between what is possible in NA and what I know is possible here. I could spend the rest of the day typing up examples but I have other things to do.

PH