Weak hive not feeding and worried

[Gilberdyke John]

So, Apivar, abit rubbish? Is it OAV all the way in terms of preventing / treating varroa?

I speak as I find. I've noticed reduced effect using Apivar and Apistan in my area. Note it can be confusing for a beginner when faced with API in the name of so many products. OA is a great product for controlling mites but setting up for it can become expensive for a beginner with one or two hives. Traditionally beginners were/are taught to use Thymol based treatments after taking off summer/autumn harvests. Apiguard (in trays) which require suitable accommodation space or Apilife-Var which is in the form of thin biscuits over 4 weeks is simple and economic. Both these followed up at winter solstice with OA syrup dribble. Moving on from the basic treatments is useful once you have a basic familiarity.

 

[hemo]

OA vaping costs approx. £50 - £60 for a pan and lithium small battery will pay for itself within a few years. No need to consider product use by dates and easy to administer all year round if need be, product always available without having to buy in new treatment for best date.

 

[Newbeeneil]

OA vaping costs approx. £50 - £60 for a pan and lithium small battery will pay for itself within a few years. No need to consider product use by dates and easy to administer all year round if need be, product always available without having to buy in new treatment for best date.

it's interesting that there seems to be no disclaimers like there used to be regarding the illgality of using OA (or even Apibioxal more than once) now.
How things change.

 

[drex]

10 years ago I bought a Chinese £25 pan vape and begged for an old ( for recycling) battery off my regular garage, freely given. Both still in service

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

OA vaping costs approx. £50 - £60 for a pan and lithium small battery will pay for itself within a few years. No need to consider product use by dates and easy to administer all year round if need be, product always available without having to buy in new treatment for best date.

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/fruugo-cheap-kit-for-the-frugal.56008/

 

[beebob]

My shopping list from the helpful guys on here...

OA £6.50
https://the-beekeeping-shop.co.uk/product/oxalic-acid/
Vaporizer £29
https://www.fruugo.co.uk/beehive-va...atment-m68e/p-150169557-317237305?language=en
PPE mask £21
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Half-Mask-...HT0A3-0L5-N00/dp/B00ZCOFHM0?tag=forumyield-20

 

[E&MBees]

Have you managed to get the SBI to have a look ?

 

[hemo]

My shopping list from the helpful guys on here...

OA £6.50
https://the-beekeeping-shop.co.uk/product/oxalic-acid/
Vaporizer £29
https://www.fruugo.co.uk/beehive-va...atment-m68e/p-150169557-317237305?language=en
PPE mask £21
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Half-Mask-...HT0A3-0L5-N00/dp/B00ZCOFHM0?tag=forumyield-20

A 12v battery supply is needed.

 

[ericbeaumont]

OA £6.50

Be aware that the VMD regulations do not permit pure OA to be used to treat varroa and that you will be in breach of the law if you do so.

The reason for this is that although OA had been used successfully for many years without regulation, a commercial product developed by Chemicals Laif called ApiBioxal was regulated by the VMD more recently at great cost. To reduce risk of dosing variability (and give commercial advantage) pure OA was outlawed.

What is so different between OA and ApiBioxal? In OA terms, nothing, but AB has silica added to prevent solidification in storage, and sugar for no particular reason. These two additives will caralemise in your sublimator and cause much cursing and scraping,

The big however is that many beekeepers continue to use OA in full knowledge (or ignorance of the law) that it does the same job more efficiently at vastly reduced cost, and are also confident that the VMD is highly unlikely to spend on a test case and prosecute a beekeeper for using a forbidden product.

The description in your link takes account of the regs. and states that it can be used as a hive cleaning agent, and indeed it is used commonly for cleaning wood.

PPE mask £21

The linked mask has a filter graded P3 which is the highest particulate level, but it has no A filter to deal with sublimated OA.

Filter coding: P is for particulate filters and A is for organic vapour filters. More homework needed: read again the thread linked earlier, esp. the info. guide and link to the Types & Classes of Gas Filters and Particulate Filter Protection Levels. Some makes have their own interpretation of the codes, but you can cross-reference until you arrive at A and P classes to grade 2 as a minimum.

The mask must also protect eyes, which have a liquid surface that will absorb sublimated OA, but you could use PPE glasses with fully sealing rims.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Have you managed to get the SBI to have a look ?

you also need to get on to ebay and buy yourself a cheap jeweller's scales to weigh the OA (about 2.5 grams per dose)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/11368962...BefguNkDuUK7B8z1EIzkjXkA==|tkp:BlBMUK6ZkabfYgand some 5ml cosmetic pots to keep the doses in

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Be aware that the VMD regulations do not permit pure OA to be used to treat varroa and that you will be in breach of the law if you do so.

The reason for this is that although OA had been used successfully for many years without regulation, a commercial product developed by Chemicals Laif called ApiBioxal was regulated by the VMD more recently at great cost. To reduce risk of dosing variability (and give commercial advantage) pure OA was outlawed.

What is so different between OA and ApiBioxal? In OA terms, nothing, but AB has silica added to prevent solidification in storage, and sugar for no particular reason. These two additives will caralemise in your sublimator and cause much cursing and scraping,

The big however is that many beekeepers continue to use OA in full knowledge (or ignorance of the law) that it does the same job more efficiently at vastly reduced cost, and are also confident that the VMD is highly unlikely to spend on a test case and prosecute a beekeeper for using a forbidden product.

The description in your link takes account of the regs. and states that it can be used as a hive cleaning agent, and indeed it is used commonly for cleaning wood.


The linked mask has a filter graded P3 which is the highest particulate level, but it has no A filter to deal with sublimated OA.

Filter coding: P is for particulate filters and A is for organic vapour filters. More homework needed: read again the thread linked earlier, esp. the info. guide and link to the Types & Classes of Gas Filters and Particulate Filter Protection Levels. Some makes have their own interpretation of the codes, but you can cross-reference until you arrive at A and P classes to grade 2 as a minimum.

The mask must also protect eyes, which have a liquid surface that will absorb sublimated OA, but you could use PPE glasses with fully sealing rims.

When the OA vs Apibioxal farce initially surfaced I asked how many beeks would simply avoid treatment, either really not treating or simply by lying or by omission of recording. There's also the question of identifying residues of OA left on hive surfaces. What would be involved in discovering if traces on frame tops/hive surfaces were from generic OA or from OA as a constituent of Apibioxal? Throw into the mix naturally occuring OA traces in a hive and someone is going to have a severe headache.

 

[ericbeaumont]

discovering if traces on frame tops/hive surfaces were from generic OA or from OA as a constituent of Apibioxal?

Zero chance, I guess. I got the impression (hard to get a clear opinion, naturally) from a couple of SBIs that they thought the legislation a waste of time & effort, which it is.

The driver for the change may have been commercial opportunity but the tickbox lovers of VMD bureaucracy, plus support from the BBKA (don't forget that misguided thinking) was enough to drive it through.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Zero chance, I guess. I got the impression (hard to get a clear opinion, naturally) from a couple of SBIs that they thought the legislation a waste of time & effort, which it is.

The driver for the change may have been commercial opportunity but the tickbox lovers of VMD bureaucracy, plus support from the BBKA (don't forget that misguided thinking) was enough to drive it through.

I think you are right and I get the impression from conversations with several SBIs that even some within their ranks may not be using AB.
Or maybe I imagined those conversations?.................

 

[pargyle]

When the OA vs Apibioxal farce initially surfaced I asked how many beeks would simply avoid treatment, either really not treating or simply by lying or by omission of recording. There's also the question of identifying residues of OA left on hive surfaces. What would be involved in discovering if traces on frame tops/hive surfaces were from generic OA or from OA as a constituent of Apibioxal? Throw into the mix naturally occuring OA traces in a hive and someone is going to have a severe headache.

The reality is that there is neither the manpower nor the incentive for the powers that be in the VMD to seek out and prosecute hobbyists for using generic OA. Even if there were, the ability to PROVE that generic OA was used is doubtful. Generic OA was never outlawed - it was (mistakenly IMO) never approved as a legitimate treatment. It is very short sighted and frankly, so many people are now using sublimated OA, it really is a farce. The approved product contains totally unnecessary additives that are just there to render some 'uniqueness' to the product in order to generate the licence.

The rest of Europe approved its use and we were supposed to follow the EU and the Minister of Ag at the time, Owen Paterson, dragged his heels and obviously went for the money - it costs thousands to get a product licenced by the VMD.

Generic OA has proved to be a very effective treatment for varroa, the bees tolerate sublimation and the knock down rate is in the order of 97% in a broodless situation. There is no justification for stopping people using it and I suspect that in time it will become accepted as the norm for OA treatments and then the Authorities have a problem. Indeed, by then, they will probably be spending most of their time chasing Asian Hornets.

 

[Linda G]

you also need to get on to ebay and buy yourself a cheap jeweller's scales to weigh the OA (about 2.5 grams per dose)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/11368962...BefguNkDuUK7B8z1EIzkjXkA==|tkp:BlBMUK6ZkabfYgand some 5ml cosmetic pots to keep the doses in
View attachment 37805

Thanks for answering the question of dosage and how to measure accurately. I've just ordered one! Is it the same dosage if you are using Apibioxil as opposed to OA? I also have a question about filters. My mask is 3M 6100 and I ordered 6059 filters for gases. Do I need any other filters in addition to these? I have close fitting goggles too. This afternoon I experimented on an empty hive and found that the vaporiser pan got really hot, and after 3 minutes it began to singe the bottom of the frames! I'm concerned that this is going to really stress the bees. There is hardly any space between the pan and the frames and they are almost touching. Would it be a good idea to put an empty super on the floor, beneath the hive?

 

[Erichalfbee]

This afternoon I experimented on an empty hive and found that the vaporiser pan got really hot, and after 3 minutes it began to singe the bottom of the frames!

I found this too but I didn't notice till first inspection the following Spring. Vape under your OMF from the back. Apibioxal dose is on the packet. Isn't it already measured out for you? Beware the sugar glues everything up so line your pan with foil
Be aware that even Apibioxal is licensed for single use once a year only so if you are multiple vaping you might as well use plain oxalic
Masks/filters Masks/filters for oxalic

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Thanks for answering the question of dosage and how to measure accurately. I've just ordered one! Is it the same dosage if you are using Apibioxil as opposed to OA? I also have a question about filters. My mask is 3M 6100 and I ordered 6059 filters for gases. Do I need any other filters in addition to these? I have close fitting goggles too. This afternoon I experimented on an empty hive and found that the vaporiser pan got really hot, and after 3 minutes it began to singe the bottom of the frames! I'm concerned that this is going to really stress the bees. There is hardly any space between the pan and the frames and they are almost touching. Would it be a good idea to put an empty super on the floor, beneath the hive?

I used pan sublimation a few years ago and noticed the same charring from sliding the pan in through the hive entrance. For a while I tried sliding a metal sheet in to the inspection tray slot and sitting the pan on that but it was a real faff. The gas-vap used with a hole in the side of my clear crown board for the emission tube was a breath of fresh air.
It's easy to use and the stream of micro-crystals can be seen as a jet of white smoke, visible through the clear crown board. The material only becomes visible after it changes state back from gas to solid rather like a jet of water vapor (not real steam) being visible from a kettle.
There's no doubt about the penetration of the treatment into the hive as you can actually see it in progress as the solid particles settle on the frames. Bees then walk it about over the next few days.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Do I need any other filters in addition to these?

You ought not to delegate PPE choice but satisfy yourself that you've got it right. Use the link given by Dani and those I gave here at post 49.

 

[enrico]

Thanks for answering the question of dosage and how to measure accurately. I've just ordered one! Is it the same dosage if you are using Apibioxil as opposed to OA? I also have a question about filters. My mask is 3M 6100 and I ordered 6059 filters for gases. Do I need any other filters in addition to these? I have close fitting goggles too. This afternoon I experimented on an empty hive and found that the vaporiser pan got really hot, and after 3 minutes it began to singe the bottom of the frames! I'm concerned that this is going to really stress the bees. There is hardly any space between the pan and the frames and they are almost touching. Would it be a good idea to put an empty super on the floor, beneath the hive?

If you put an empty super of the floor then only do it for the vaping as they will build comb into it if left. I would suggest not to and vape from under the OMF if you dont have solid floors. I have a piece of metal sheet the same size as a varroa board that I slip under and used to put the pan on that with no trouble

 

[drex]

I cut a piece of plumbers soldering mat to fit the bottom of the pan, held on by wires. No scorching