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Tar paper ...waterproof wind proof but almost non existant insulation value because the thin layer ~1mm and not wonderful lambda value of about 0.1

No doubt, but the real benefit of the black paper is solar gain. We make no attempt to insulate our hives...except for above the crown board. The colonies come through the winter with nice clusters despite the very cold temperatures and months with no cleansing flights. Surely we leave more honey on for winter than you, but they made it, and through proper management, that feed is in the broodnest anyway.

I'm sure our management systems are different, but so is our climate. We do what we have to and we learn what works best over time. Over insulated colonies don't do well here because of moisture issues, and are usually soaking wet and moldy come spring. Letting them cool off and giving them plenty of ventilation promotes quiet clusters, and yields healthy, dry bees.

Just an honest question...Why do your bees require such extra insulation, when your climate is no where nearly severe as mine?
 
As a Beekeeper, which has been mentored for years, and now into my first winter alone (1st year of beekeeping), my mentor, never gave any Hives fondant, but then again, I was never invited around his hives in the winter, so never had the "Winter experience.", which has been a real learning curve, and still getting used to hefting! BUT in answer to your question, I was told recently after feeding, also bung on 2 x 2.5kg blocks of fondant in an eke as well, as a "security blanket", and if it's not used, take off and freeze, and use next winter (year). After weighing my hive, which weighed alot, I decided not to! I still have the blocks if needed, in an emergency.
 
Spent today cutting up recticel foam. 6 sheets for the loft insulation and 5 sheets for:
5 national brood boxes, 5 national floors (hopper style) , 5 national supers 5 national roof, 2 national nuc boxes ,
2 national nuc hopper floors, 2 national nuc roofs,
Another eke to go with the 4 others already cut.
A hopper floor for the experiment hive.
Tomorrow it's router table out to finish the foam parts and on to correx and ally sheet cutting for the gaskets and rails.

Stood by a skip far end of a train journey and cried as sheet after sheet of Celotex was broken up.
 
No doubt, but the real benefit of the black paper is solar gain. We make no attempt to insulate our hives...except for above the crown board. The colonies come through the winter with nice clusters despite the very cold temperatures and months with no cleansing flights. Surely we leave more honey on for winter than you, but they made it, and through proper management, that feed is in the broodnest anyway.

I'm sure our management systems are different, but so is our climate. We do what we have to and we learn what works best over time. Over insulated colonies don't do well here because of moisture issues, and are usually soaking wet and moldy come spring. Letting them cool off and giving them plenty of ventilation promotes quiet clusters, and yields healthy, dry bees.

Just an honest question...Why do your bees require such extra insulation, when your climate is no where nearly severe as mine?


The tar paper will feel warm in the sun but unless you make the top of tar paper air tight the heat will be lost in convection through the holes. The tar paper is not in good thermal contact with the hive(unless you glue it on) so there is not going to be any significant conduction. Any heat that gets in will then be lost by convection through the top vent.

The problems you get with insulation are probably because you putting far too little on and it isn't sealed at the top. It needs to be 2 to 3 inches of styrofoam, top and sides, sealed with no top vent or entrance.

Insulating with a top vent/entrance open is counterproductive nearly all the heat is lost and the condensation will occur inside and the heat of condensation lost as well.

Bees survive in trees in Vermont? Well they have highly insulated nests and bottom entrances and no top vent . And they probably need less than 20pounds of honey to do it.

The tradition here is not to insulate despite research showing increased spring development and honey yield, increased survival of smaller colonies. The use of polystyrene hives is increasing with some bee farmers. The traditional use of bottom entrance only and mesh floors has meant the insulation has been effective. Note although its not very low temperature it is very high heat loss (windy wet).

As regards bees the research show bees survive best in warm humid nest conditions, then cold dry, then cold humid and warm dry.

Btw I do talks on the experimental research I do on this subject. The furthest west enquiry for a talk (so far) has been Cornwall :)

Why did North American bee keepers go away from insulation, it was fashionable there in the early 20th century
and Why did you adopt top vents/entrances? were the two events connected?

(btw i can supply the citations for research if you are interested)
 
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it needs to be 2 to 3 inches of styrofoam top and sides sealed and no top vent.


Now, for most of the winter, our hives are half buried in snow, and the bees can't fly from the bottom entrances. If weather for a cleansing flight were to present itself, the bees wouldn't be able to fly...so an upper entrance is critical.

....
 
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Btw I do talks on the experimental research I do on this subject. The furthest west enquiry for a talk (so far) has been Cornwall :)

Why did North American bee keepers go away from insulation, it was fashionable there in the early 20th century
and Why did you adopt top vents/entrances? were the two events connected?

(btw i can supply the citations for research if you are interested)

I'm just a bit west of Cornwall...actually an hour north...of Cornwall, Vermont

Why did American beekeepers give up on insulation? Because it isn't necessary in the lower 48. Go farther north to somewhere like Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, where the temperatures stay far below 0 degrees F, and they do pack the hives with insulation, or winter indoors. It just isn't necessary here on the 45th.
 
Lots of bee activity - bees flying some new bees dancing about. Went and trimmed the nettles behind the hive and got some nettle stings on my fingers - through gardening gloves.
 
I'm just a bit west of Cornwall...actually an hour north...of Cornwall, Vermont

Why did American beekeepers give up on insulation? Because it isn't necessary in the lower 48. Go farther north to somewhere like Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, where the temperatures stay far below 0 degrees F, and they do pack the hives with insulation, or winter indoors. It just isn't necessary here on the 45th.
"Necessity" gets bound up with economics, ethics, social inertia.
E.g. How much insulation can you buy for the price for the saving of 50lb of stores and 40lb of extra yield.

Do you want to change your procedures

How much does it cost in effort to either replace the bees or other procedures

Is it accepted amongst your peers to put the bees in an open barn just so you keep the snow off.?

That's why I prefer to stick with measurable heat flows:)
 
Lots of bee activity - bees flying some new bees dancing about. Went and trimmed the nettles behind the hive and got some nettle stings on my fingers - through gardening gloves.

As a boy I spent a lot of time in tomato greenhouses. A strain of nettle with darker green leaves and more "teeth per inch" of barbs around the edge grew inside. Those b......s could really sting and the after effects lasted into the following day. I'm glad they don't grow around my hives.
 
watched my hives and was amazed to see a handfull of drones coming and going from one hive is this normal this time of year????
 
I am in the process of making honey soap from the recipe in bee craft so far so good. Waiting for the reaction bit to finish. With this recipe it can be used the next day.


Craig
 
I am in the process of making honey soap from the recipe in bee craft so far so good. Waiting for the reaction bit to finish. With this recipe it can be used the next day.

Same day actually.
Went to a Dr Sara demo last weekend. The two tricks to her less-water method seem to be in the appropriate use of the stick-blender and keeping the stuff really warm (well insulated) until the reaction is finished.
Her young daughter was bagging our take-home samples (barehanded) less than an hour after the mixing started.
 
watched my hives and was amazed to see a handfull of drones coming and going from one hive is this normal this time of year????

Not normal. Not a good sign either. And its not as if there was anything you could do about it at this point anyway.
 
watched my hives and was amazed to see a handfull of drones coming and going from one hive is this normal this time of year????

Agree with itma....not normal but occasionally a hive....particularly a strong one..... will carry a few drones over winter. The danger is that your queen is failing/failed and laying drones rather than workers.


I spotted 2 drones being kicked out 2 weeks ago but all looks well from the top.

Have you a see through crown board? You could look through if you have. At least you will know. Nothing you can do about it save perhaps order a nuc to replace if needed.

Best of luck....
 
Took some feeders off and covered over the holes in the crownboards. Made sure the mouseguards were on tightly. Two colonies were very defensive, even though i didn't open them, but is was a cold and damp day.
 
Looking at the temperatures of the exp hive it looks as though bees are now only putting out a constant 4 watts.(10C above external temperature) It's either intentional behaviour or the bees are dwindling.
 
Looking at the temperatures of the exp hive it looks as though bees are now only putting out a constant 4 watts.(10C above external temperature) It's either intentional behaviour or the bees are dwindling.
Yes. That's what I noted in the apiary today: v cool crownboard. I assume we're near brood minimum. Did you see I mentioned you in a thread asking about hive temps? http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27099
 
I am in the process of making honey soap from the recipe in bee craft so far so good. Waiting for the reaction bit to finish. With this recipe it can be used the next day.


Craig

Not here in the marches that's for sure! Sorry, quoted wrong thread meant to quote the one about flying drones.......durrrr!
 
watched my hives and was amazed to see a handfull of drones coming and going from one hive is this normal this time of year????

Yes a big worry I have a hive in similar situation and an important hive to me so only increasing the worry.
I reassure myself by thinking I have seen drones late in the year and all was well so fingers crossed. It comes with the territory unfortunately.
 

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