Wasps

[Thymallus]

When it comes to wasp feeding behavior I don't feel as

Be nice to see some references backing this up. Rather than just rhetoric,, like swarm feeding!

 

[Thymallus]

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00040-015-0395-5

Bloody hell this is fun!! Wish I was still in research at times like this. But .............

Yes, and note... towards the end of the abstract "to our knowledge this is the FIRST study".Published May 2015.
There have been others, but as one can easily demonstrate recruitment in bees one has to ask why is it or has been so difficult in wasps? If it occurs. I think poorly developed is the best answer. None of this 1 brings back 10 that bring back 100.
Reasons, possibly look at polarity of nest building, vertical vs horizontal and lack of dance floors.

 

[beebot]

Yes, and note... towards the end of the abstract "to our knowledge this is the FIRST study".Published May 2015.
There have been others, but as one can easily demonstrate recruitment in bees one has to ask why is it or has been so difficult in wasps? If it occurs. I think poorly developed is the best answer. None of this 1 brings back 10 that bring back 100.
Reasons, possibly look at polarity of nest building, vertical vs horizontal and lack of dance floors.

That was my thinking too - cannot be too well developed if well controlled conditions are needed to show it.

An observation I have had is that when I have accidentally left honey coated equipment around you will find allot of bees feeding on it and only a few wasps. Suggests wasp recruitment is less well developed. Very weak and poor evidence but thought I would add it.

PS. What a pathetic post by Oliver. Some seem to not be able to engage in a discussion without taking dogmatic view. I am incredible clever so I am correct how dare you possible disagree even slightly with me.

 

[beebot]

During our research we have captured video of extranidal wasps communicating with each other using a form of waggle dance (wing vibration) coupled to limb semaphore. We also have captured video of wasps working in teams to defend a food source from competing wasps where the food source has been protected by a sentry wasp allowing her co-workers to feed in peace free from harassment from other wasps.

Could we see these please Karol. I have not come across anything like that in the literature so would be very important.

 

[Karol]

In response to your request Beebot the answer is go swivel.

 

[beebot]

In response to your request Beebot the answer is go swivel.

Thanks.
A reasoned response - not. Obviously don't like being shown up for what you are. I quite simple don't believe you then. Probably making it up like everything else.
You are now on ignore as well. The list is growing.

Have a nice day

 

[beebot]

Karol,

Still waiting for your response to post 32.
Remember asking for your explanation for threatening to sue Dexters Shed.
You know breach of patent. I've read your patent but anybody with any knowledge knows patents do not allow you to stop people making any copy of something - only if they start to try and sell them the problems starts.
I suggest that you are trying to protect your business.
The reason Oliver is soooooo upset is that he believed you was taken in. Hence he cannot take usual aloof condescending post - maybe not as clever as he thinks - but then again I'm just stupid.

Had to get that of my chest. Said my piece. Now you really are on ignore.

Back to reading the current science on wasp. It really is interesting. Might go for a walk later and see if I can spot any wasp 'hunting'.
Merry Christmas

 

[Cussword]

When it comes to wasp feeding behaviour I don't feel as though the term forager or foraging does justice to the complex nature of wasp feeding behaviour. I'm happy enough to use the term foraging when wasps are in their sweet feeding phase and spend time 'grazing' on what are effectively residual carbohydrate food sources (i.e. sources that are not consumed in one visit). I don't however like using the term foraging when wasps are in their 'protein' feeding phase because to me it fails to convey the nature of their 'hunting' behaviour.

The fact that some academic papers have failed to identify recruitment behaviour in social wasps within the nest is no surprise. The reason is quite simple. The studies have generally failed to take into account that recruitment is life cycle dependant and varies significantly on where wasps are within their life cycle and the nature of the food that they are feeding on at the time.

When wasps are in their protein feeding phase, i.e. hunting, by and large there is no recruitment of nest mates and biologically this makes sense. Wasps hunt insect prey to feed to their young. The grubs digest the insects and convert their exoskeletons which are made of a complex sugar (i.e. chitin which is a long chain polymer of n-acetylglucosamine) into free glucose which the grubs re-feed back to their adult wasps through trophallaxis. Insect prey is discrete and generally a single visit food source so recruitment doesn't offer any biological advantage and if anything would be destructive because it would waste valuable energy in directing co-workers to non productive food locations. The only exception to this is where occasionally wasps find carrion which represents a residual food source (i.e. non single visit food source). In such circumstances wasps do communicate the location of the food source within the nest but my experience is that the resulting recruited swarm feeding on carrion is quite a weak foraging aggregation. I believe that the reason for this is that the content of sugars in such carrion foods is significantly less than that found in the exoskeletons of insects and hunting wasps therefore preferentially hunt for discrete insect prey rather than scavenge for carrion because this delivers a higher sugar pay load which in turn means that the hunting wasps get better trophallactic rewards. Moreover, during the protein feeding phase it makes biological sense to have as many hunting wasps as possible working in isolation because that's the best way to maximise hunting efficacy for finding solitary insect prey targets.

Hunting wasps will opportunistically take carbohydrates whilst they are hunting if they stumble upon them but this is opportunistic and solitary behaviour which again makes biological sense. The reason being is that if hunting wasps were diverted into feeding in aggregation on carbohydrates during the hunting phase then no protein would be returned to the nest and the young would starve and the colony would collapse as would the species.

Once wasp nests mature and release their sexual progeny the queen stops laying eggs which means that there comes a time when are no grubs in the nest. When this happens the adult wasps are denied their carbohydrate food source from within the nest and so convert to foraging for carbohydrates from other sources outside of the nest. Interestingly, such carbohydrate food sources are generally quite rare in nature and so different wasp colonies find themselves competing for the same food sources. Unlike discrete insect prey, these carbohydrate food sources are generally residual in nature, i.e. can't be consumed in one visit. The combination of a residual food source and competition from other wasp colonies creates the conditions where recruitment of co-workers becomes a biological necessity and foraging wasps start communicating the location of these foods sources at the nest. Recruitment here is not about harvesting the food source as is seen in honey bees. It is about co-workers working together to protect the residual food source from wasps from other colonies. During our research we have captured video of extranidal wasps communicating with each other using a form of waggle dance (wing vibration) coupled to limb semaphore. We also have captured video of wasps working in teams to defend a food source from competing wasps where the food source has been protected by a sentry wasp allowing her co-workers to feed in peace free from harassment from other wasps. Interestingly, during this phase of the life cycle people frequently mistakenly observe that wasp nests have gone into decline because activity around the nest has diminished. In reality the worker wasps are simply away from the nest swarm feeding on residual carbohydrate food sources during the day with infrequent visits to the nest save returning at dusk for the security of forming a roosting aggregate within the nest.

I've been very lucky as far as wasps are concerned so this is the first time I have properly read your posts.
I honestly found that to be really interesting. I'll be paying attention from now on.

 

[Karol]

Thanks.
A reasoned response - not. Obviously don't like being shown up for what you are. I quite simple don't believe you then. Probably making it up like everything else.

That's fine - I don't care if you believe me or not.

As for the video evidence that gets regularly aired at the talks that I give to local BKAs on wasp biology which incidentally before you go insulting my integrity again I give for free and without taking expenses and without mentioning or promoting the traps that I sell.

You are now on ignore as well.

I'm delighted! Fraternity through exclusion - what a wonderful way to bring people together.

The list is growing.

Have a nice day

I will now that I know I have something in common with a growing number of people.

 

[Karol]

I've been very lucky as far as wasps are concerned so this is the first time I have properly read your posts.
I honestly found that to be really interesting. I'll be paying attention from now on.

Wasps are fascinating insects ideally adapted to what they do. Whilst they share some similarities with honey bees as a super organism they are very different. To draw an analogy we wouldn't look to explain the behaviour of a pride of lions by using what we know about wildebeests yet much of the biology of wasps is examined on the basis of our knowledge about honey bees. Thymallus and his musings on vertical vs horizontal polarity of nests and dance floors is just one such irrelevant example.

 

[BrianO]

Wasps are fascinating insects ideally adapted to what they do. Whilst they share some similarities with honey bees as a super organism they are very different. To draw an analogy we wouldn't look to explain the behaviour of a pride of lions by using what we know about wildebeests yet much of the biology of wasps is examined on the basis of our knowledge about honey bees. Thymallus and his musings on vertical vs horizontal polarity of nests and dance floors is just one such irrelevant example.

Absolutely... if we can see beyond the " Wasps attacking my Hive , kill them " attitude , like all critters they are fascinating in their own right.

Beautifull creatures, Beautifull markings and such incredible nest structure. "Vespula vulgaris " even the Latin name has a negative connotation.

They are an important and intricate part of our ecosystem, and to be valued not sprayed with poisons as is quite often the immediate reaction to finding a nest in any close proximity to a dwelling.

 

[Thymallus]

Thymallus and his musings on vertical vs horizontal polarity of nests and dance floors is just one such irrelevant example.

Just what I like to come home to, reasoned debate.
If you are seeing wasp equivalents of "waggle dances" you have surpassed all the known peer reviewed science on wasp behaviour all by yourself. You should publish.......
If it will stand up to peer reviewing I might start to believe you have something. Until then.....

 

[BeeJayBee]

Beautifull creatures, Beautifull markings and such incredible nest structure. "Vespula vulgaris " even the Latin name has a negative connotation.

It isn't meant to be negative.

'vulgaris' is just a Latin term used as a classification adjective to describe something that's commonplace. We don't automatically think Primula vulgaris has been given a negative name - it's the common primrose.

 

[Thymallus]

The fact that some academic papers have failed to identify recruitment behaviour in social wasps within the nest is no surprise. The reason is quite simple. The studies have generally failed to take into account that recruitment is life cycle dependant and varies significantly on where wasps are within their life cycle and the nature of the food that they are feeding on at the time.

If you read some of the papers on wasp foraging behavior you will find that academic researchers are well aware of the different stages of a wasps life cycle and their differing food sources at different times of the year. They also refer to experienced foragers and immature foragers as a mark of how age effects their foraging ability and where the wasps are in their life cycle. All this is taken into consideration.
Perhaps they cannot find recruitment because it doesn't happen!

What they do find is that when wasps are feeding, particularly on carbohydrate sources, their behavior on return to the nest excites other wasps into foraging. But there is no directionality or distances communicated. The excited nest-mates go off randomly hunting for a food source.
It is oft quoted as being a bit of a mystery why they are only eusocial insect group that doesn't recruit nestmates to food sources with any efficiency.
As I mentioned to Beebot, scientists can easily demonstrate that other eusocial insects do recruit with direction and distance, but they are only able to show, at best, very weak recruitment in wasps. If wasps are so good at it, as you suggest, it should be be easy to demonstrate.

 

[Thymallus]

In reality the worker wasps are simply away from the nest swarm feeding on residual carbohydrate food sources during the day with infrequent visits to the nest save returning at dusk for the security of forming a roosting aggregate within the nest.

Swarm feeding, scout wasps etc....hmmmm. You seem to be the only people who have ever recorded this. There is scant scientific evidence to back up your observations.

But if you have the hard evidence, as you claim, you should publish it. It would be a kick in the teeth for all those academics who spend their lives studying the behavior of eusocial wasps.

It's a neat idea and beekeepers, who are used to recruitment to food sources by bees, are the most likely candidates to fall for it. Hell, I even believed you for while........

 

[drex]

Well, however they do it, the Devils did a pretty good job of killing a whole colony last year. Hundreds of them in the hive in the end. Sad. My other colonies were not that bothered by them. Had to put glass in front of one and that did the trick. Was sad to see. Downside of an out apiary.

 

[Karol]

I really do take it as a compliment that you have made it your mission in life Thymallus to discredit me. It's just a shame that you have to insult beekeepers as being gullible for appreciating my help.

And why should I want to kick academics in the teeth? I'll leave you to do the kicking.

 

[Karol]

Well, however they do it, the Devils did a pretty good job of killing a whole colony last year. Hundreds of them in the hive in the end. Sad. My other colonies were not that bothered by them. Had to put glass in front of one and that did the trick. Was sad to see. Downside of an out apiary.

It's a good point you make Drex. If wasps didn't recruit then random foraging would result in an even distribution of wasps between your hives and that is just not consistent with what is observed in vivo.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

And why should I want to kick academics in the teeth?

Hmmmmm, give me a moment with that................................

 

[Hawklord]

It's a good point you make Drex. If wasps didn't recruit then random foraging would result in an even distribution of wasps between your hives and that is just not consistent with what is observed in vivo.

Is it possible that, rather than recruiting workers within their own nest, they actually scent mark and any other passing wasp homes in on that pheromone, marking with its own pheromone? Once wasps find an easy target in the apairy, and enough pheromone is left, wasps are drawn to that hive.