To clip, or not to clip, that is the question.

[Dishmop]

As opposed to...bee waving goodbye to, as they head over the horizon..lol..we've all been there

its worse when you have just spend half an hour carefully climbing a tree and putting a box near them...........

 

[mbc]

5. It DOES buy time. With a clipped queen they really cannot go till the last minute, often as the virgins are piping away and even starting to cut themselves out. Unclipped queens can go amazingly early if the conditions are perfect for swarming. Have seen them go often off unsealed cells, and occasionally off larvae only a day or two old. Clipped queens never do this.

Good answers.
This point about delayed swarming is very interesting, I've long been convinced that the bees are somehow aware their queen cannot fly, and that this subtly changes their psychology making the onset of swarming less likely.

 

[Finman]

Good answers.
This point about delayed swarming is very interesting, I've long been convinced that the bees are somehow aware their queen cannot fly, and that this subtly changes their psychology making the onset of swarming less likely.

Not at all. Clipping wings do not prevent swarming. Bees rear new virgins, and swarm with them.

From where bees get swarming inpulse. Not when they leave, but when they start to make queen cells?

 

[B+.]

Personally, I never clip a queen. Even the queens I have a lot of time and money invested in. There is no excuse for a managed colony to swarm (other than beekeeper neglect)

It seems I am in the minority. Thats ok. I don't mind. It seems to me that if you're testing for swarming intentions you shouldn't blind yourself to those signs. Its possible to manage swarming intentions by removing all except one frame of larvae from the flying bees (queen, brood, young bees in a box facing the other way ontop), but, I accept that everyone doesn't work like me. In fact, I'd be suprised if they did.

 

[Hivemaker.]

It seems I am in the minority. Thats ok. I don't mind. It seems to me that if you're testing for swarming intentions you shouldn't blind yourself to those signs. Its possible to manage swarming intentions by removing all except one frame of larvae from the flying bees (queen, brood, young bees in a box facing the other way ontop), but, I accept that everyone doesn't work like me. In fact, I'd be suprised if they did.

The method was well described /demonstrated on the IWF videos and i have used it as well, bit like a reverse A/S.

 

[Finman]

. It seems to me that if you're testing for swarming intentions you shouldn't blind yourself to those signs. .

I do not understand? Testing what?

Is that same as swarming control?

Reverse AS. What is that?

 

[B+.]

I do not understand? Testing what?

Is that same as swarming control?

Reverse AS. What is that?

See IWF videos C13136 Selection of the honeybee - yield and behaviour https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYtPTt512tE
C13137 Selection of the honeybee - aiming for vitality https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdFjqVwwyIk (the last couple of minutes are missing but there is nothing significant lost)

 

[B+.]

I do not understand? Testing what?

Is that same as swarming control?

Reverse AS. What is that?

As a geneticist, you will understand that the overall breeding value of an animal is a composite of several desirable traits. In the case of the honeybee, we are interested in honey yield, calmness on the comb, docility during inspection,resistance to swarming, susceptibility to diseases, overwintering ability and spring development, etc.

If a colony is marked down in the swarm test, it can still have value in other areas (e.g. varroa tolerance) so we want to maintain the colony.
If you take a box filled with comb and put it on the original floor, all the foraging bees will return to this point. However, they need a frame of brood to keep them motivated. We get this by going through the parent stock (shaking the bees off each comb and destroying all queen cells). A frame of young brood is placed in the centre of the box of comb (a frame of pollen and open nectar is also given and the supers replaced ontop). The queen and the rest of the colony is given a new floor and placed in the opposite direction. Flying bees reinforce the bottom box and reduce the population in the queens chamber. After 9 days, you replace the frame of open larvae in the bottom box (now containing queen cells) with another comb of larvae (all queen cells are destroyed). Usually after two rounds, the swarming impulse is extinguished and the colony can be recombined.

 

[Into the lions den]

Not at all. Clipping wings do not prevent swarming. Bees rear new virgins, and swarm with them.

From where bees get swarming inpulse. Not when they leave, but when they start to make queen cells?

You are not getting the point Finman (maybe others are missing it too). It is NOT that they delay swarm preparations, just that it delays the *departure of the swarm*, buying the beekeeper a couple of days more time to keep up with their work.

In perfect (for swarming) conditions an unclipped queen can go at a time of their choosing, even off cells in remarkably early stages in exceptional circumstances, a clipped one cannot. Of course, if unattended to, the main swarm will just go with the first virgins(s) out.

 

[Into the lions den]

It seems I am in the minority. Thats ok. I don't mind. It seems to me that if you're testing for swarming intentions you shouldn't blind yourself to those signs. Its possible to manage swarming intentions by removing all except one frame of larvae from the flying bees (queen, brood, young bees in a box facing the other way ontop), but, I accept that everyone doesn't work like me. In fact, I'd be suprised if they did.

Lol....its a lot more common than you might think. Its our primary method of swarm control. Well very similar anyway. New broodbox on the old position, old queen in it with one to three bars of young brood, even a single patch of eggs and larvae is enough, the flying bees go back to there, and the queen immediately has to get laying again. Keeps up the development of the colony with an eye on later flows. In good conditions it buys you 18 to 24 days before the process needs repeating, but in poorer conditions when there is a dearth of incoming resources it can take considerably longer before the new brood box is full again.

Old nest can be raised above with entrance from a different face if reuniting is the aim, or moved away across the site (just not too close to prevent the bees flying/walking back to mother due to the proximity of her pheromones) if increase is the aim.

 

[B+.]

In perfect (for swarming) conditions an unclipped queen can go at a time of their choosing, even off cells in remarkably early stages in exceptional circumstances, a clipped one cannot. Of course, if unattended to, the main swarm will just go with the first virgins(s) out.

How often do you get around your colonies? I appreciate with your numbers it must be tough to get around them all, especially if the weather doesn't play ball. Do you keep mostly young queens too?

 

[Finman]

You are not getting the point Finman (maybe others are missing it too). It is NOT that they delay swarm preparations, just that it delays the *departure of the swarm*, buying the beekeeper a couple of days more time to keep up with their work.
.

It was mbc who thought that it delayes. Not me.

Getting the point after 50 years clipping? Nothing difficult to understand how it works.

Nothing to miss in this issue.


.

 

[B+.]

Keeps up the development of the colony with an eye on later flows. In good conditions it buys you 18 to 24 days before the process needs repeating, but in poorer conditions when there is a dearth of incoming resources it can take considerably longer before the new brood box is full again.

Old nest can be raised above with entrance from a different face if reuniting is the aim, or moved away across the site (just not too close to prevent the bees flying/walking back to mother due to the proximity of her pheromones) if increase is the aim.

As you say...its a similar approach.
If I read it correctly, the only difference is that you keep the queen in the box on the original site so it is supported by the older bees. The top box has a reducing population but has eggs/larvae and very young bees. Do they still build emergency cells?

 

[Finman]

As you say...its a similar approach.
If I read it correctly, the only difference is that you keep the queen in the box on the original site so it is supported by the older bees. The top box has a reducing population but has eggs/larvae and very young bees. Do they still build emergency cells?

Older bees... They are 3 days old and older. All those who have located the home. AS is full of nurser bees and foragers. So queen can lay with full speed.

Top box has brood and more bees emerge all the time. Box has queen cells, and it does not need emergency cells. If upu brake them, bees make new.

I do not like piled system, because hives are difficult to manage.

 

[Hivemaker.]

As you say...its a similar approach.
If I read it correctly, the only difference is that you keep the queen in the box on the original site so it is supported by the older bees.

If i have read it correctly it sounds like the complete opposite to me, sounds like a vertical artificial swarm leaving the queen with the older flying bees in the bottom box, where if they have committed to swarm they still will in a short space of time, where as with the other method the queen is left in the much depleted top box with the brood and young none flying bees, and just one frame of eggs/brood is left in the bottom box for the older flying bees/foragers to make cells from.

 

[Finman]

If i have read it correctly it sounds like the complete opposite to me, sounds like a vertical artificial swarm leaving the queen with the older flying bees in the bottom box, where if they have committed to swarm they still will in a short space of time, where as with the other method the queen is left in the much depleted top box with the brood and young none flying bees, and just one frame of eggs/brood is left in the bottom box for the older flying bees/foragers to make cells from.

One sentence and I did not understand it.

To me it is important to give foundations to the swarm part. It cuts 100% swarming fewer.

When I have given ready combs, quite often hive continues swarming preparations.
.

 

[B+.]

if they have committed to swarm they still will in a short space of time, where as with the other method the queen is left in the much depleted top box with the brood and young none flying bees, and just one frame of eggs/brood is left in the bottom box for the older flying bees/foragers to make cells from.

Yes. I think I misread it.
He is giving the queen more space to lay but the majority of nurses are in the upper box. I'm not sure if, in their depleted state, they'd be able to produce many emergency cells but they'd probably try.
Did I miss something?

 

[B+.]

One sentence and I did not understand it.

To me it is important to give foundations to the swarm part. It cuts 100% swarming fewer.

When I have given ready combs, quite often hive continues swarming preparations.
.

The point is to pre-empt a swarm

 

[Hivemaker.]

I'm not sure if, in their depleted state, they'd be able to produce many emergency cells but they'd probably try.
Did I miss something?

They won't make any cells if the queen is with them of course, she will carry on laying, only the bees in the bottom box will make emergency cells, and they only have one frame of brood to do it from.

The other method is pretty much a normal A/S, but all under one roof,vertical, so yes, they would make cells in top box.

 

[Finman]

The point is to pre-empt a swarm

What is that? Pre empt?