Swarming tendencies after artificial swarm

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For me, my play cups (about 8 along the bottom edges) are in the new box of foundation with the queen and flying bees on original site. As for the original brood, now in new position. I went in after 5 days and knocked down all but 2 queen cells. I haven't disturbed them since. It has now been 2 weeks since the AS.
 
For me, eggs seen in 2 play cups (seen on Thursday 24th) on newly drawn foundation in the Q+ part of the AS. AS (pagden style) was initiated on 17th April.

Similar situation in another hive AS'd on the 15th April - different apiary.

I do have some swarmy stock and We are close to OSR.
 
I have also had a charged queen cell in the Q+ bit of AS. There is a lot of honey above them so maybe that makes them feel congested? They are next door to OSR. There is now plenty of room in the BB. I have put a super of foundation just above the BB and removed the charged queen cell. The queen is clipped. I will check again in a week.
 
And now a crap weather forecast just when the new queen should be flying. And 12000 apple trees over the fence waiting to be plundered.
Questioning whether I want to play this game any more :-(
 
BeeN

knocked down all but 2 queen cells. I haven't disturbed them since. It has now been 2 weeks since the AS.

Don't be surprised if you have lost a swarm from that box with the first Q to hatch......

rich
 
Don't be surprised if you have lost a swarm from that box with the first Q to hatch......

rich

I thought the advice was that after knocking down QC's to one or two, you should then leave alone for 4 weeks. This would give a chance got the queen to emerge, mate and start laying. Are you saying I should have only left one QC?
 
BeeN
Yes, leave alone but only with one Qc, which is what I always thought was standard practice. However there has been a lot of recent advice suggesting leaving 2 on the premise the first hatch will kill the 2nd ....out of interest I tried it on a llhive last year and they swarmed.
It doesn't really matter as you still have all your 'main colony with the Q.....so plenty of time to sort out any problem.
richard
 
Yes. Leave only one. If leaving two you have to move the hive to the other side of your AS a week later to further bleed bees
so that this now even further depleted colony is less likely to swarm.
 
You always leave two if you have only the one colony. Plain common sense.

You can leave two and rarely lose a cast swarm. Moving the old brood box to the other side of the old queen at the appropriate time minimizes that risk. Again, simple common sense; Padgen had all the angles covered. Some don't follow all the process as per Padgen and then are surprised that they lose a cast, then advise to always only leave a single cell.

I would always recommend a new beek to leave two as queen cells are easily damaged, particularly by new beeks. Better to lose a cast swarm than have no queen at all. Beekeeper choice, as usual.
 
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I thought the advice was that after knocking down QC's to one or two, you should then leave alone for 4 weeks. This would give a chance got the queen to emerge, mate and start laying. Are you saying I should have only left one QC?

You've got the "leave alone" bit slightly skewed - and its a common (and costly) misconception.


The time to "leave alone" is AFTER the princess is due to emerge - not after you reduce the QCs.



Before then, ideally just before then, you NEED to inspect fanatically carefully for more (emergency) QCs.
Your first cull doesn't prevent them starting some more!
Brush the bees off your chosen QC frame(s) and look carefully!
Then shake the bees off every other brood frame and inspect them too for 'bonus' QCs.
If you don't cull the extra (new) ones, you will lose cast swarms, and potentially most of the bees in your colony.

If you selected open QCs to keep, you have at least 8 days before there is a chance of a princess emerging - so aim to go through again after at least 5 days. If you chose sealed cells, then you have less than an 8 day window, but you have to guesstimate how much less!


FWIW, my suggestion is to leave two cells that are about the same development stage and very close to each other - same comb face or adjacent. That should maximise the opportunity for two healthy princesses being reduced to one without losing a cast.
If you have plural colonies, you can be brave and reduce to one QC, because if it goes wrong, you can fix things via a transplant from another colony. But with just one colony, you need a new Q, first time.
 
You've got the "leave alone" bit slightly skewed - and its a common (and costly) misconception.


The time to "leave alone" is AFTER the princess is due to emerge - not after you reduce the QCs.



Before then, ideally just before then, you NEED to inspect fanatically carefully for more (emergency) QCs.
Your first cull doesn't prevent them starting some more!
Brush the bees off your chosen QC frame(s) and look carefully!
Then shake the bees off every other brood frame and inspect them too for 'bonus' QCs.
If you don't cull the extra (new) ones, you will lose cast swarms, and potentially most of the bees in your colony.

If you selected open QCs to keep, you have at least 8 days before there is a chance of a princess emerging - so aim to go through again after at least 5 days. If you chose sealed cells, then you have less than an 8 day window, but you have to guesstimate how much less!


FWIW, my suggestion is to leave two cells that are about the same development stage and very close to each other - same comb face or adjacent. That should maximise the opportunity for two healthy princesses being reduced to one without losing a cast.
If you have plural colonies, you can be brave and reduce to one QC, because if it goes wrong, you can fix things via a transplant from another colony. But with just one colony, you need a new Q, first time.

Thanks itma,
Ok so I haven't got this quite right by the sounds of things.
On 16th I carried out the AS. At this stage there were charged QC's.
On 21st I reduced QC's down to two. They were capped and they were on the same frame.
I still have the queen who is laying well in the new brood box.
I think it is now too close to be opening the hive. What do you think?
 
On that timing info, I'd say cross your fingers!

But no harm in ensuring you have some swarm catching stuff all ready to pick up and use.

Hopefully the first 'swarm' you might see, would be a mating flight, not a swarm, and the bees will slink back and plaster the front of the hive.

However, if you do get a proper cast, I'd say that (after you've caught them) was the time to grasp the nettle, open up, and release (or 'spring') any more virgins from any remaining QCs. They can then run around the hive and sort each other out.
Hopefully, it won't come to that!
 
Beenovice

"On 21st I reduced QC's down to two."

With a bit of luck you still have time to get up early tomorrow, open the hive and remove one of them....or they'll probably swarm - see my earlier reply.
 
With one hive, the potential downside of a single unsuccessful QC is greater than the potential downside of losing a cast (in the event that they should choose to cast rather than scrap (which usually happens with the loser still in her cell - and at no risk to the winner).
Therefore the advice for one hive owners is different for 4 hive owners, who have the elements available to retrieve the situation in the event that the single cell fails.
As o90o pointed out perfectly reasonably above.
Also note that having two cells in close proximity is more likely to lead to only a single survivor than having the two cells at opposite ends of the hive.



However, the concern here isn't the second deliberately chosen QC, it is the possibility that the bees may have raised a third, fourth, fifth … or even tenth emergency cell based on the two-day old larvae that were probably present when the QCs were reduced to just the two.
The hive hasn't been inspected since.
And it depends on how advanced the chosen open QCs were, as to whether or not they will have emerged yet. Which is the impossible call without having seen them!
 
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itma

beenovice has 2 hives - as there is also still the 'main' hive with the original Q that can be used to re-coup a Qless situation in this AS hive.

richard
 
I admit that I do tend to discount the original Q, as being likely on the way out.


However, I repeat that my concern isn't really at all the second QC, its the unknown of possible multiple additional emergency QCs.
I agree that the greater the confidence in the old Q, the more I'd be prepared to risk opening and - in my view - dealing with any additional emergency cells - but I wouldn't be so fussed by the leaving of two neighbouring QCs earlier.
 
or they'll probably swarm

An exaggeration. Possibly, not probably. There are several factors which can make casts an improbability. Given a little thought and those factors can be listed.
 
And it depends on how advanced the chosen open QCs were, as to whether or not they will have emerged yet. Which is the impossible call without having seen them!

Rightly or wrongly, the chosen queen cells were "closed". For this reason, I don't think I can risk opening up the hive now. Can I?
 

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