How significant is the direction the entrance faces?

[pargyle]

The info about nectar timing is useful, thank you.

I could have said, I have heavily insulated hives. (Warres - about the same as polystyrene for insulation, according to Derek Mitchell's research.) And though I have a mesh floor there is a removable panel below (to monitor varroa, but normally shut so the bees can control temperature, i.e. the mesh floor is essentially a sealed wall as far as ventilation is concerned.) So, I don't think sun on the hive body itself will change the internal temperature much. It's really about the light coming in the entrance. I didn't mention this because I thought the answers from very experienced beeks such as yourself might be more generally useful to e.g. users of Nationals if I did not specify "well insulated hive".

Derek will be along shortly no doubt !! He's a forum member ..

Firstly, Erica is right .. there's very little heat loss in the hive from an open mesh floor .. I've measured it and it's neglible. Ignore what BEEBEEKA said - just wrong I'm afraid.

It's not the warmth of the sun on the hives that alerts the bees that it's time to fly .. it's the sun that they can see in the sky .. and their clever eyes can detect the sun is up even when it's cloudy as they can detect the UV which penetrates the cloud cover - (Think - have you ever got sunburnt on a cloudy day when you thought it was safe to sit in the sun?). Bees eyes can detect far more than we can even imagine .. Being an avid bee watcher I've noticed that the first few bees tend to come out of the hive when they detect a reasonable amount of daylight .. and then some will have a bit of a fly around - but as soon as the sun hits the landing board/entrance the real foraging starts.

So, I'm with JBM ... I don't think moving them massively is going to make a huge difference to foraging... what you could do, is make some notes as the year progresses as to what time the sun hits the entrance of each hive and what time it leaves it ... which may allow you to optimise which direction individual hives are pointing - if only by a few degrees. You may also be surprised by seeing when the bees emerge from each hive - because some bees are early risers and others a plain stick in beds !!

 

[Madge]

Its common sense really,...
Get a good builder to re-point your block work and make it draft free.

Read my post. I said 'straw bales'. No wind can find its way through that. There is no 'block work' involved. The only place wind can creep in is pass the door frames - which is why I think the power of wind to penetrate a space should not be underestimated.

 

[pargyle]

Read my post. I said 'straw bales'. No wind can find its way through that. There is no 'block work' involved. The only place wind can creep in is pass the door frames - which is why I think the power of wind to penetrate a space should not be underestimated.

But ... your doors are on the side of the building .. if it was built on stilts and your doors were in the floor you would not get so many draughts ...

 

[Tremyfro]

This thing about OMF and wind. I don't understand. The bees attempt to seal all the fissures and gaps prior to winter. So the box is sealed ...we hope against air moving in and out. The entrance is left open. There is an OMF. When the wind blows across the underneath of the hive it will draw air through the entrance and across the bottom of the frames. This will make the bees tuck themselves above the air movement to avoid getting chilled. So if the hole in the cover board is left open or matchsticks are used...air will be drawn through the hive...hence the advice to close the hole and not use matchsticks. So why use an OMF? Why not just have a solid floor or use the varroa tray to stop the air movement across the lower frames....well apart from for vaping etc.

 

[oliver90owner]

MC seems not to realise that humans 'feel colder' if their feet are just a few degrees colder than their head. Bees don't live on the floor unles it is warm or they are house cleaning. Perhaps not thought that the bees clustered on the frames is impervious to mass air flow, perhaps not aware that it will only be the bees on the outside of the cluster which get cold - by passing draughts. The box depth was one reason I chose 12 inch deep frames - the bees can move further away from any turbulent air at floor/entrance level.

25mm of timber is never going to have the equivalent thermal insulation characteristics of 40mm EPS. Certainly better than 18/19mm thick. Try 3'' of wood?

To answer tremyfro re why have an OMF - the full area is not needed in winter. Half the free area would be too much (but which bits). I raise the brood box, not the coverboard, by a matchstick width if I use a solid floor. Sufficient air flow at the base of the hive without draughts up around the bees. Good insulation in the right place may mean that the extra bottom ventilation is unnecessary with a solid floor, but a dry hive throughout winter with no through draughts is good enough for me. My winter losses over the last ten years have demonstrated the system works.

 

[user 6228]

The effect of windage on the hive is complex problem in fluid dynamics...
I have just come back from a computational fluid dynamics meeting at Leeds university, one of the presentations was a buildings experiment similar to this. It illustrated how very complex the flow and the effects are.
I would therefore advise not to jump to obvious cause and effect and "common sense"


The Warre hive results are surprising but are much simpler, and are down to the combination of :

• 100mm of sawdust and shavings in a pillow bag
• 25mm of wood on the sides
• reduced surface area of the Warre in the top 200mm compared to a national (shape counts)

 

[Tremyfro]

Why are some beekeepers adamant about leaving the varroa boards in the shed for the winter? Especially if they use the smaller brood frames? What is the advantage of doing that? All of my hives have got the varroa boards in...well apart from the one which blew away...have yet to locate it....somewhere in Glamorgan there is a varroa board...it is mine! Any moisture can still drain away.
It is VERY windy here and gusting too.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Why are some beekeepers adamant about leaving the varroa boards in the shed for the winter?

It's called experience and reading the bees - not guesswork after half reading a book

 

[Tremyfro]

It's called experience and reading the bees - not guesswork after half reading a book

I guess your boards are in your shed....and your bees dealing with cold air on their bums.
You seem to think you know it all.....but you don't know everything. It is a pity you didn't take my advice and leave off with the derogatory remarks....then the actual good advice could be taken on board.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

This wind will get inside a hive from underneath and blow warmth away
Unless the wind is blowing straight up through the OMF the mesh will diffuse it and very little will disturb the bees.

If you have a super under the brood box - for additional stores - that will also reduce the wind inside the box.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It is a pity you didn't take my advice and leave off with the derogatory remarks.

Your advice would be the last person's I'd follow, hopefully other beginners on this forum will take heed

 

[Tremyfro]

Your advice would be the last person's I'd follow, hopefully other beginners on this forum will take heed

Ah...but then I don't set myself up as a guiding other beekeepers. I only ask questions and say what I have done. Whereas, you clearly have an exulted opinion of yourself and your knowledge....pride comes before a fall..so it is said. I might just remind you that you were wrong about long hives...perhaps you are wrong about other things too.
However, many things that you pontificate about are worthy and good advice...just drop the personal comments....and then we can all enjoy the jokes and wisecracks instead of feeling that you are rather rude.

 

[wessexmario]

Let the bees tell you.

If you have any small gaps at all in the boxes in the sides or top of a hive the bees will seal it with propolis.
They would be quite capable of laying a propolis floor over OMF.
But they don't.


If the area under the hive is symmetrical, then any wind flow across the underneath will pass straight across, it would require either a pressure difference, or holes in the body/roof of the hive for air to flow up into the hive. The OMF acts as a wind break to air travelling through it, the mesh first acts as a barrier resisting the air separating to flow through it, which reduces the air speed, and then when the air emerges on the other side of the mesh, the air speed drops again because the volume of moving air is no longer constricted by the mass of the mesh.
(it's a long time since I did any fluid dynamics, I'm sure Derek or someone can explain it better)
There's a huge difference between having a wide open hole under the hive and having a sheet of mesh at the top of an open floor box.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Ah...but then I don't set myself up as a guiding other beekeepers. I only ask questions .

That's the point - you don't you just wade in and talk as if you know exactly what you are doing, giving the impression that you know the lot - you were doing just that during your beginners course i hear

I might just remind you that you were wrong about long hives.

Was I wrong? I never expressed the opinion that I was right but pointd out that you were talking rubbish about Dartingtons being around for a lot longer than Langstroths, you then decided to change the whole slant of the discussion to try and cover up your foolishness.
You just decided you'd won some non existent debate. I just remembered a quote I once read and left you to it:

It's hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it's damn near impossible to win one with a fool.

I'll leave this one to the same principle.

 

[Tremyfro]

That's the point - you don't you just wade in and talk as if you know exactly what you are doing, giving the impression that you know the lot - you were doing just that during your beginners course i hear



Was I wrong? I never expressed the opinion that I was right but pointd out that you were talking rubbish about Dartingtons being around for a lot longer than Langstroths, you then decided to change the whole slant of the discussion to try and cover up your foolishness.
You just decided you'd won some non existent debate. I just remembered a quote I once read and left you to it:



I'll leave this one to the same principle.

I believe you are a particularly unpleasant man. You decided I needed to be taken down a peg and you have pursued that idea. You have decided that all new beekeepers lack intelligence and treat them like second class citizens. I hope and pray that you don't start on some other poor beekeeper. You twist what everyone says to suit your nasty personal comments. I did not say that dartingtons had been around longer than langstroths ...I said long hives had been. I am finished with you. Do not comment on any more of my posts and I won't comment on yours.

 

[For want of a better word]

I believe you are a particularly unpleasant man. You decided I needed to be taken down a peg and you have pursued that idea. You have decided that all new beekeepers lack intelligence and treat them like second class citizens. I hope and pray that you don't start on some other poor beekeeper. You twist what everyone says to suit your nasty personal comments. I did not say that dartingtons had been around longer than langstroths ...I said long hives had been. I am finished with you. Do not comment on any more of my posts and I won't comment on yours.

OH dear... can we not try to be pleasant to each other.......
although sometimes perhaps if one asks the wrong questions one gets the wrong answers

Yeghes da

 

[wessexmario]

OH dear... can we not try to be pleasant to each other.......

this forum would be a better place if everyone "played the ball, not the man".

 

[Millet]

OH dear... can we not try to be pleasant to each other.......
although sometimes perhaps if one asks the wrong questions one gets the wrong answers

Yeghes da

Tell me about it, that's the story of my life but my skin has got a bit thicker (just like me ) over the years which means a lot is allowed to go over my head instead of making me bite.

 

[Finman]

OH dear... can we not try to be pleasant to each other.......


Yeghes da

Native football huligans, you know

 

[Finman]

.
You can debate about sunny or no need sunny places as long as you can, but I put my hives in such places, that they get sun from morning to evening.... If it is possible. I have not enough best places to offer to my all hives, but I try situate them.

Windy place is worse to bees that morning hours in shadow.

I have kept my hives in such sites that they are at afternoon in shadow. Results were really bad.
Wind is bad too.