foundationless - wire or fishing line?

[Finman]

.
We discussed here about same things, 2 years ago, and nothing has changed outhors' minds. Facts has no meaning to most. Perhaps Basic knowledge about bees and biology are missing.
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-27393.html

Like electrict comes from wall, honey comes from hives. Not even from pastures.

You can save foraged honey or waste it. Final waste is to let them bee in the hive as winter food.

The Basic law of beekeeping is that you get nothing from nothing.

Second law is that Apis mellifera collects to itsels a winter store and a human changes it to cheaper sugar.

Here is a research made by professional beekeepers, who try to live with nursing bees and get earnings to quite a big group of human beings.


What is yield of season when you put same size package bees on

1) no foundations
2) foundations
3) new combs
4) old combs

You can see, that the hive needs 100 lbs to draw all combs from honey.

What do you think that if pastures give only 100 lbs? It does not mean that the hive gives nothing. Hive makes combs only when it need combs for storing.

Hive gives perhaps 50 lbs honey and half amount of drawn combs.

Then with foundations. It is halfway between ready combs and strips.

Foundation and cell walls consumes almost same amount of wax.

Old combs and new combs has no difference.

And then, when beekeepers calculated procuction costs off from honey selling price , the strip method gove negative financial result. The package bees were not able to get their own costs back with strips.

PS = post scriptum.

Even if hobby beekeeper is not able to play financial game, it is not bad if he knows some facts about honey production.

Even if the guys are mostly 2 hive owners, they are adult people and they manage well in their ordinary job. They know well the laws of business on their area.
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[BeeJayBee]

I was wondering about peoples' experiences with wire or fishing line in national brood frames.

I'm favouring wire simply because it seems more robust.

I use Jumbo Langstroths, which are bigger than Nationals. I use fishing line for both brood frames and super frames.

It needs to be monofilament, otherwise they chew it.

I use wire - struggled to get sufficient tension with fishing wire.

Twist one end of the fishing line round a tack, then knock the top of the tack flat onto the frame to hold the line in place. Pull the line taut, wrap the loose end round the other tack, then knock that tack flat.

 

[Hivemaker.]

struggled to get sufficient tension with fishing wire
Husband does mine. He does some sort of fishing knot after spitting on the line. Always works.

Does the fishing line keep its tension after boiling or steaming the combs out?

 

[Finman]

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I do not know any in Finland who uses fishing line in frames. And have never before heard about that. And there quite few who do not use foundations. There are much guys, who does not use wires in medium supers.

Nowadays I boil or melt combs off from frames and save the wires. It is easy to twist the wire with nail so that it sings like a quitar. I do like that zig zag apparatus.

 

[Hivemaker.]

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There are much guys, who does not use wires in medium supers.

I don't use any wires in our national shallow frames.

 

[Finman]

I don't use any wires in our national shallow frames.

I made once 100 medium super frames without wires. After 2 years all were broken.

The advange of 2/3 medium frames are to spin extractor quicker. The anvantage is lost if I must save the combs. Even with wires combs will bend in extrction.

It is not big job to wire them.

 

[Hivemaker.]

After 2 years all were broken.

Mine aren't all broken after two years.

 

[Finman]

Mine aren't all broken after two years.

What kind of extractor you have and what is your extracting temperature of combs?

i heat the combs over night to 33C and extractor is tangential.

 

[Hivemaker.]

What kind of extractor you have and what is your extracting temperature of combs?

Radial in a warm place.

 

[dickndoris]

My colonies are almost all foundationless now or have frames that are. I use super thin foundation in starter strips that work pretty well. Always as has been said have your boxes perfectly level!! I did start to use0.4mm steel wire. Disaster!! It stretches and stretches a lot!! I now use 0.4mm stainless steel wire as sold on ebay under jewelry making. Its perfect and so much cheaper than the bee shops. 2 across on supers and 3-4 on 14x12 brood. Only had one colony making curved wax so far........touch wood......

 

[Madge]

Radial in a warm place.

Regarding unwired supers ...

Hivemaker, do you have a way of avoiding them from collapsing? Is a radial extractor the answer?

I often have unwired supers - some survive, and some collapse during extraction. (I have a cheap manual tangential extractor.)
Kitta

 

[Hivemaker.]

Regarding unwired supers ...

Hivemaker, do you have a way of avoiding them from collapsing? Is a radial extractor the answer?

I often have unwired supers - some survive, and some collapse during extraction. (I have a cheap manual tangential extractor.)
Kitta

Nothing more than giving them a bit more slow spin time, especially when they are new combs... the extractor has a series of programs that can be set and left to carry on.

With your tangential extractor do you use a set of mesh screens?

Edit... our foundation is also slightly thicker than most, unless being rolled for cut comb.

 

[Swarm]

I had quite a few unsatisfactory cut comb frames that I spun out last year, they were freshly drawn on thin foundation. I spun them out again this year and they are no worse for wear, in fact they seem as strong as the wired frames and this is a tangential extractor. Is it perhaps, a little too much effort in the spinning process that's blowing frames?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I had quite a few unsatisfactory cut comb frames that I spun out last year, they were freshly drawn on thin foundation. I spun them out again this year and they are no worse for wear, in fact they seem as strong as the wired frames and this is a tangential extractor. Is it perhaps, a little too much effort in the spinning process that's blowing frames?

with tangential it is always worthwhile to be a bit gentler and to only part extract the first side, flip over and do the other and then go back and fully extract the first side - I must say, the same as Swarm I had some unsatisfactory cut comb frames a few years ago so i extracted them using a tangential - they're still going strong and have since been extracted using a radial, and to be honest, they get no different treatment to the rest of the frames

 

[Finman]

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When I estimate time saving not to wire, or extract with lower speed, wiring is clearly better alternative.

Some brood in super frames makes combs strong.

Heating combs before extracting makes combs softer, but honey needs to be warm that it acts well in all parts of process.
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Sometimes when weathers are hot and dry, honey can be very stiff.
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[Hivemaker.]

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When I estimate time saving not to wire, or extract with lower speed, wiring is clearly better alternative.
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It is not for me.

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Sometimes when weathers are hot and dry
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We don't get that problem here.

 

[Finman]

It is not for me.




We don't get that problem here.

Perhaps you do not need advices from this forum.
But every 2-hive owner night need radial extractor to handle foundationless combs.
I dot not need advices either That I can say.

Primary question is, how handy is to extract natural combs without frames or without wires. I think that they are ment just to help extraction.

.like bees are meant to produce honey. In old good days they produced wax to church candles.

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[jenkinsbrynmair]

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When I estimate time saving not to wire, or extract with lower speed, wiring is clearly better alternative.
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or a better extractor - can't imagine using a puny little tangential extractor to cope with all the frames of honey you claim to extract - you wouldn't het a problem with all those broken combs either

 

[Finman]

or a better extractor - can't imagine using a puny little tangential extractor to cope with all the frames of honey you claim to extract - you wouldn't het a problem with all those broken combs either

Heh heh heh heh heh
. Teach duck to swim. You are better in it.

Welsh beekeepers tend to have best smokers and best exractors, but the essential waits: Honey yield.

. But it will come some day, when sheep are not eating any more everything.
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[Madge]

...

With your tangential extractor do you use a set of mesh screens?

Edit... our foundation is also slightly thicker than most, unless being rolled for cut comb.

Yes, the extractor is manual and has a mesh cage. It can take two frames at a time. (It's about time I upgrade!)

Thanks for all the suggestions. I generally do everything you've suggested (apart from thicker foundation). I guess I'm sometimes just a bit too rough with the spinning.

Kitta