foundationless - wire or fishing line?

[Finman]

Sorry Finman .. I'm sure you are responding to me but I have you on my ignore list so I can't see any of your posts .. much more pleasant experience for me .. but save your fingers for more worthy causes - judging by the number of recent posts you will wear them out before we are halfway through winter ...

Do not deliver wrong information. Please.
Greetings to Leningrad when you go there.

When you do not write in, you see my corrections. I like that I would have better to do than correct your mistakes.

 

[Tom Bick]

Why?

When hive has 25% drone brood, its honey yield drops 50%.

Drone brood produce douple amount fertile mites. It means mite cultivation.

And advantages....nothing.

On average I would say 15-20% drone comb that does lead to a hight drone population.

I would say there may be a reduction in honey but from my experience not no where near 50%. I know you have case studies to prove it but from my experience my bees out perform most beekeepers in my area although other factors could play a part.

The varroa thing is also interesting. On paper yes a varroa factory but again my observations it's no more worse than in hives without any drones and could say better with less varroa and healthier worker bees.

 

[Finman]

On average I would say 15-20% drone comb that does lead to a hight drone population.

I would say there may be a reduction in honey but from my experience not no where near 50%. I know you have case studies to prove it but from my experience my bees out perform most beekeepers in my area although other factors could play a part.

The varroa thing is also interesting. On paper yes a varroa factory but again my observations it's no more worse than in hives without any drones and could say better with less varroa and healthier worker bees.

May be it is not "I think" issue, because these things have been researched.

There are too researches, how much natural colonies have drone combs.
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[Tom Bick]

Yes I know you have linked to the papers many times in the past. Quite interesting but seem to remember the one relating to honey yield comparing natural, drawn and I think foundation a bit thin on detail but interesting all the same.

It would have been interesting if the study followed the hives through a 2nd or even third year.

 

[Finman]

.
Natural beekeepers do not mind, what ever researches have been shown to them. Nothing will shange on that frontier.

 

[Finman]

It would have been interesting if the study followed the hives through a 2nd or even third year.

Real researches last 3 years because years are different. Then swarming fever affects a lot if it happens during best flow. Enough hives are needed.
Reseaching is expencive.
. I think that researching is not natural beekeepers' hobby.
.

 

[Tom Bick]

.
Natural beekeepers do not mind, what ever researches have been shown to them. Nothing will shange on that frontier.

Don't think foundationless frames makes a beekeeper a so called natural beekeeper it's just another system in keeping bees. There will always be two very opposing sides and they will never see eye to eye.

 

[Finman]

Don't think foundationless frames makes a beekeeper a so called natural beekeeper it's just another system in keeping bees. There will always be two very opposing sides and they will never see eye to eye.

I have met many kind of beekeepers. To many beekeeping is a social platform where they can meet friends. They do not mind about honey or about saving the globe. Meetings and coffee drinking is best. But I have heard that meetings are now out of date. Quite few visit in meetings.

 

[pargyle]

Don't think foundationless frames makes a beekeeper a so called natural beekeeper it's just another system in keeping bees. There will always be two very opposing sides and they will never see eye to eye.

Yehhh that ... Just as well I can't see Finnie or there would be blood on the carpet !! I just loathe being branded as something that I am not ... brings out the worst in me.

 

[Tom Bick]

I have met many kind of beekeepers. To many beekeeping is a social platform where they can meet friends. They do not mind about honey or about saving the globe. Meetings and coffee drinking is best. But I have heard that meetings are now out of date. Quite few visit in meetings.

We meet every Saturday afternoon all year round for tea and home made cakes and occasionally talk about bees.

 

[Finman]

We meet every Saturday afternoon all year round for tea and home made cakes and occasionally talk about bees.

That is really good idea keep bees, without any pressures. Finally this is only human life, and not blood in mouth money earning with couple hives. Or saving the globe with tea spoon.

But carbage talking I cannot stand if we have real knowledge.

 

[domino]

We meet every Saturday afternoon all year round for tea and home made cakes and occasionally talk about bees.

That's the best bit about beekeeping, the cake!

I'm going foundation-less just because I want to see what they do. As long as I get enough honey for presents and eating I'm fine.

 

[Finman]

That's the best bit about beekeeping, the cake!

I'm going foundation-less just because I want to see what they do. .

Somehow, when I have become old, I forget frames from boxes or I have put medium frame instead of langstroth. Idea is to put later the missing frames. Of course bees draw the combs at once.

I can see what they do, even if I do not want to see.

One guy wrote that he forgot all frames from box Bees made the whole box full of drone brood.

If mouse eates combs during winter, bees draw those holes full of drone combs.

 

[Tom Bick]

That's the best bit about beekeeping, the cake!

I'm going foundation-less just because I want to see what they do. As long as I get enough honey for presents and eating I'm fine.

It's very interesting watching them build comb and the bees and drones relationship throughout the whole year can be amusing at times. Drop me a line if you have any questions.

 

[Fatbee]

I started this year in both brood and supers. Usually insert between drawn comb. Get the odd one astray but others you wouldn't notice difference between combs drawn on full foundation. I use wire - struggled to get sufficient tension with fishing wire. Not had any issues with them breaking in spinner. Always use a starter strip. Nice to reduce foundation use

 

[Erichalfbee]

struggled to get sufficient tension with fishing wire
Husband does mine. He does some sort of fishing knot after spitting on the line. Always works.

I just asked him....he says a half blood knot

 

[Finman]

. Nice to reduce foundation use

One langstroth box has 1 kg foundations. Normal hive 5 kg.

Nice to loose 6-8 kg honey, when bees make themselves one kilo wax instead of foundations.

When one hive needs 5 boxes foundations, it is about 40 kg honey. The non foundation trick costs £ 240 / hive. When I give my wax to foundation seller, the cost of foundations is £ 2.50/kg.

To loose that much money in free solution. IT should not be nothing nice in it.

These calculations should be in fixed part of forum.
.

 

[Tom Bick]

One langstroth box has 1 kg foundations. Normal hive 5 kg.

Nice to loose 6-8 kg honey, when bees make themselves one kilo wax instead of foundations.

I have heard it mentioned that if the bees could convert all the nectar entering the hive into honey our yields could be 3-4 times what we achieve but as we know the bees need to use nectar for running the colony and converting the surplus into honey for leaner times. This conversion from nectar to honey is a big task and takes a great deal of energy and therefore stores to do it and once converted not wasted by the bees but used in leaner times and colony survival.

I am not disputing there will be a reduction in honey stores if starting out with a full hive on foundationless frames compared to other hives on drawn frames and even foundation but think it's wrong the use the kg of wax to kg's of honey calculation as the bees only build comb on nectar flows and on good nectar flows at an alarming rate perhaps faster than foundation, obviously some other factors come into play and no two hives are the same.

The kg of wax to kg's of honey calculation is ok on novice beekeepers as it's only an indication to the effort it requires of the bees and I suppose it is useful if trying to make a point it will damage your honey yield but does not take into account the cost in energy of converting the nectar into honey and then the cost in energy diluting the honey to be used and I doubt bees would never use honey to build comb.

 

[Finman]

The kg of wax to kg's of honey calculation is ok on novice beekeepers as it's only an indication to the effort it requires of the bees and I suppose it is useful if trying to make a point it will damage your honey yield but does not take into account the cost in energy of converting the nectar into honey and then the cost in energy diluting the honey to be used and I doubt bees would never use honey to build comb.

Nonsense. It is directly off from your pocket. It is not off from bees' pocket.

.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

How stable is it in a national frame, without it?

if you mean how stable is it letting the bees go foundationless on wired frames - no different to being on wired foundation - have the odd frame kicking aroiund from bait hies I've put out in the past and i treat them no different to the rest.