F0 Breeder Queen

[Ian123]

Sorry, just caught up with this thread. Not sure what P means, as 'F0 doesn't exist'. And why does asking for one make you a 'contemptible person'?

It may not exist but most of us are aware what is meant.

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

It may not exist but most of us are aware what is meant.

Okay, I'm getting it now. Thanks. Apparently I'm not in the 'most' category.

The back story, about F0s not being a real thing, is something I'll maybe come across if I keep my ears to the ground. I thought it was shortcut for a breeder queen. What makes these so special, I'm not sure. AI? Isolated breeding?

 

[JamezF]

Sorry, just caught up with this thread. Not sure what P means, as 'F0 doesn't exist'. And why does asking for one make you a 'contemptible person'?

Genetics as a topic makes my brain hurt, but in the simple terms I use to think about it...

P is the parent generation. F1 is the first Filial (child) generation and F2 is the second Filial generation (ie. the grandchildren of the P generation).

Neither of the P parents necessarily have the set of desired characteristics, but their offspring (the F1 generation) do because they inherit some from one parent and some from the other, the intent of the breeding programme being that they do so in a predictable(-ish) way. What one might hope to achieve by asking for a sample of (one half of) the parent generation isn't clear as there's no guarantee that specific parent has the characteristics desired, and in fact no guarantee that when bred with some "random" other parent that the desirable traits of the F1 generation will actually be expressed in the offspring resulting from such a mating.

James

 

[Gilberdyke John]

The majority of beekeepers haven’t even heard of this forum. If they had and participated then a crusade might have a chance.

I count myself as fortunate to have discovered this forum long ago. However despite pointing it out to local beekeeping groups I see elementary questions repeatedly crop up in said local group FB posts. All too often local replies underline huge gaps in knowledge among said groups so the adage "you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink" is demonstrably true.

 

[SWEET]

Sorry, just caught up with this thread. Not sure what P means, as 'F0 doesn't exist'. And why does asking for one make you a 'contemptible person'?

It's a starting *data* point and you can call them what you like, anyone breeding queens will know exactly what you're talking about so pay zero attention to the comment. You select from your best stocks and create queens from those, the starting point - then raise queens from those. As you move further down the family tree (0/1/2/3 etc) you'll start to lose the original queens DNA/traits but aim to bring them back in depending on XYZ methods of rearing etc etc or add in more and hope those desired traits or whatever start to display the characteristics you're after.

In simple terms.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

A lof beeks could learn alot esp BBKA steadfasts who teach the same old dross year in year out, each decade.

Before I left the LBKA a couple of years ago, the crap coming out was still the same. Single brood, lack of room, swarming issues, open feed holes , one or two varroa treatment option but mainly MAQS, shook swarm to reduce varroa etc, etc.

As a first year bee keeper, I completed the BBKA beginners course over the winter and then a practical course with bees in the spring. The courses certainly weren't complete, in that they left many unanswered questions, but then how could they be? The tutors teaching the course readily acknowledged that they were teaching the BBKA syllabus but in practice there were many different ways to handle a situation.
I found the beginners course to be a good starting point. I have since used the mentours we were put in touch with.
BBKA membership is well worth the small annual fee to me.
Having said all that, my wife thinks I am obsessed with reading the threads on this forum, perhaps she's right...

 

[sipa]

The majority of beekeepers haven’t even heard of this forum. If they had and participated then a crusade might have a chance.

Perhaps an advert or editorial in the bee press might help.

 

[Erichalfbee]

BBKA membership is well worth the small annual fee to me.

Most of us keep it up for the insurance.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

and no other reason

 

[Erichalfbee]

and no other reason

Quite

 

[BeeAdmin]

I count myself as fortunate to have discovered this forum long ago. However despite pointing it out to local beekeeping groups I see elementary questions repeatedly crop up in said local group FB posts. All too often local replies underline huge gaps in knowledge among said groups so the adage "you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink" is demonstrably true.

Do any of you that read/post in Bee Facebook groups mention the forum and link an thread that may answer a question? It may help to get more recognition for the forum and a few more members. It's very easy for them to read and then want to join.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Do any of you that read/post in Bee Facebook groups mention the forum and link an thread that may answer a question? It may help to get more recognition for the forum and a few more members. It's very easy for them to read and then want to join.

I do that in one already. I was a member of the BBKA one but in the end just couldn’t hack it any more.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Do any of you that read/post in Bee Facebook groups mention the forum and link an thread that may answer a question? It may help to get more recognition for the forum and a few more members. It's very easy for them to read and then want to join.

Yes of course. However there seems to be a mentality out there among FB group readers that they tenaciously stick to local sources despite being pointed in the right direction (thebeekeepingforum), maybe as part of a local bee society/group there's an expectation of trust?. Unfortunately and as part of a wider problem there are a lot of people with questionable competency out there dispensing "advice",on FB.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I do that in one already. I was a member of the BBKA one but in the end just couldn’t hack it any more.

Snap!

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

Genetics as a topic makes my brain hurt, but in the simple terms I use to think about it...

P is the parent generation. F1 is the first Filial (child) generation and F2 is the second Filial generation (ie. the grandchildren of the P generation).

Neither of the P parents necessarily have the set of desired characteristics, but their offspring (the F1 generation) do because they inherit some from one parent and some from the other, the intent of the breeding programme being that they do so in a predictable(-ish) way. What one might hope to achieve by asking for a sample of (one half of) the parent generation isn't clear as there's no guarantee that specific parent has the characteristics desired, and in fact no guarantee that when bred with some "random" other parent that the desirable traits of the F1 generation will actually be expressed in the offspring resulting from such a mating.

James

Thanks for writing, James. I presume the P queen is what is sometimes known as a breeder queen - or F0 queen. I've seen it suggested here that one might consider buying a breeder queen - more reliable than an F1.

What you are saying (IIUC) is that P queens are a bit like raw material which producers of F1s use to breed queens with the traits they value. That I did not know. I had assumed the rationale for buying a breeder queen is that you are one step closer to your ideal queen, in that her genetics more pure - diluted by one generation less than F1.

All queens are daughters and (usually) mothers. I can't say I'm any the wiser about what makes a P / breeder / F0 queen different. What are you getting by paying possibly ten times more than an F1? How has this value been created?

I've just seen this, below.

It's a starting *data* point and you can call them what you like, anyone breeding queens will know exactly what you're talking about so pay zero attention to the comment. You select from your best stocks and create queens from those, the starting point - then raise queens from those. As you move further down the family tree (0/1/2/3 etc) you'll start to lose the original queens DNA/traits but aim to bring them back in depending on XYZ methods of rearing etc etc or add in more and hope those desired traits or whatever start to display the characteristics you're after.

In simple terms.

I like the idea of a data point. And thanks for the explanation in simple terms. Still not sure about where the added value comes from, though. Do these breeders claim special qualities from AI or isolated breeding? Some suppliers of F1s might say something similar.

 

[Ian123]

The term F0 queen is I believe fairly recent and not liked by some?
Although I think it’s self explanatory.
In terms of a Carni or a Buckfast you’re dealing with a line bred or pure race queen.
The added value of these queens from proper breeders using known lines is they are used to produce F1 queens.
F1 type queens are what’s generally available from the main suppliers.
F1 Queens produced from decent breeder(F0) will 95% of the time breed true to the parent queen by that I mean show her desired characteristics even when open mated.
The added value is your buying a queen producing machine with the ability to replicate as many queens of a predictable quality as you are able.

Very ball park description but in general I think that covers it.

 

[JamezF]

Thanks for writing, James. I presume the P queen is what is sometimes known as a breeder queen - or F0 queen. I've seen it suggested here that one might consider buying a breeder queen - more reliable than an F1.

If the P queen has been mated with the supplier's drone(s) of choice then yes, I can see how she might produce queens with desirable characteristics than those produced by her daughters. The P queen herself might not have all of those desirable traits though, because her daughters have a mixture of genetics from both parents. Equally if you took an unmated (P-to-be) queen and she mated with random drones then her F1 offspring may well not even inherit the good traits that you'd get in F1 offspring from controlled mating.

It makes my brain dribble out of my ears just thinking about it.

James

 

[Amari]

It makes my brain dribble out of my ears just thinking about it.

James

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

The term F0 queen is I believe fairly recent and not liked by some?
Although I think it’s self explanatory.
In terms of a Carni or a Buckfast you’re dealing with a line bred or pure race queen.
The added value of these queens from proper breeders using known lines is they are used to produce F1 queens.
F1 type queens are what’s generally available from the main suppliers.
F1 Queens produced from decent breeder(F0) will 95% of the time breed true to the parent queen by that I mean show her desired characteristics even when open mated.
The added value is your buying a queen producing machine with the ability to replicate as many queens of a predictable quality as you are able.

Very ball park description but in general I think that covers it.

Thanks Ian. Very helpful. Perhaps the F0 term is not liked because it sounds a bit like the start of something new - or maybe because it was coined from F1 in reverse?

 

[JamezF]

Perhaps the F0 term is not liked because it sounds a bit like the start of something new - or maybe because it was coined from F1 in reverse?

Possibly because the F relates to "filial" and the parents of the breeding line aren't children of it. As a form of notation it might considered acceptable, but it doesn't translate very well to reality.

James