Damp Kills, how have you set up your colonies?

[Graham40]

At this time of year its the damp that kills off a colony so how you set up your colony going into the winter will determine how strong they are in the spring.

With this in mind what is the best solution to the damp for a single wall colony

Personally I remove 2 of the outer bars and seal the crownboard in place with electrical tape or duct tape to prevent wind chill.. heat rises and we have a lot of high winds in Aberdeenshire.( I have 8inch Roofs on my Nationals, I also have a few 10" Roofs from my grand fathers day. )

Others in my area also use an empty super on the bottom of the brood box to add ventilation.

I'm not a fan of the varoa wire mesh floor as they are prone to letting the cold into the hive when theres a hard frost.. I had casualtys a few years back and ditched all the wire mesh floors over the winter period. Theres little brood production until January any way so my personal preferance is to change them out at the spring clean. However in January its essential to lift the hive from its floor and clean out any dead bees, the entrance needs to be clean or your asking for trouble with Nosema or just general bee skitter... If they cant get out they'll make a real mess of their combs.

I do not disturb the crown board until March and then only for a look along the top of the bars disturbing the nest is not a good idea. If you want them to start drawing out comb wait until mid March and feeding syrup has begun for a few weeks.

I don't feed syrup in large does's it needs to be added a little at a time or they will fill up the area they have at the centre for laying in with syrup and rather than speeding up the build up of the colony you slow it down!

feeding syrup in February is not a good idea its the coldest month ground temperature wise, if Im going to feed liquid it will be their own honey from the capping tray or a bucket of oil seed rape honey melted. I keep a bucket for emergency use when they've chomped through their own rations due to mild weather otherwise its candy over the feed hole.

Note never ever feed your bees honey from an unknown source.

I run 3 sites all have their own problems.
My hive types are:
I have 15 Bar Glens (Im looking for more if anyone has some?? These double walled monsters are excellant in a static site or as the apiary sentinel), Nationals (all 3 types standard, deep and commercial) and Langstroth's running BS frame supers. - (Its Aberdeenshire I cant get them out of the broodbox quick enough in the spring)

 

[VEG]

Dont you find it awkward using all the different hive types?

 

[PBee]

With this in mind what is the best solution to the damp for a single wall colony

Solid 50mm Kingspan crownboard or similar. Also for nuc sized colonies you could make dummy frames out of the same material to increase insulation.
Insulation is a drug - once you start you just can't get enough.

 

[user 6228]

No damp doesnt kill. Its the heat loss that kills. Damp conditions can sometimes increase heat loss but not always...

 

[susbees]

Solid 50mm Kingspan crownboard or similar. Also for nuc sized colonies you could make dummy frames out of the same material to increase insulation.

Yup, big chunk of Kingspan in the roof - 8 inch roofs are awkward - we have a few but prefer six inch roofs with a tub for fondant embedded in the centre and a removable bit on top should it be needed. And a chunk down the side of dummy boards if colonies single brood (Commercials=Brood and a half). OMFs work fine here...we're 210m and can see Snowdon so it's not toasty in winter: putting the whole shabang on an empty super for the few on pallets seems to work (from a Scottish Beekeepers' booklet..), reducing drafts but keeping ventilation and raising further from the ground. Also having willow coppice and bramble windbreaks to the N/NE of each stand helps.

I'm not a fan of the varoa wire mesh floor as they are prone to letting the cold into the hive when theres a hard frost.. I had casualtys a few years back and ditched all the wire mesh floors over the winter period. Theres little brood production until January any way so my personal preferance is to change them out at the spring clean. However in January its essential to lift the hive from its floor and clean out any dead bees, the entrance needs to be clean or your asking for trouble with Nosema or just general bee skitter... If they cant get out they'll make a real mess of their combs.

Bees will not make a mess of their combs unless they are stuck in for months (ask Finman): unless they have dysentery already. Do you know for sure that your winter casualties weren't caused by Nosema or varroa issues? Full length mouseguards with no block allows clearouts in weather windows.

 

[drstitson]

no need to tape around the crownboards - the bees will do the job for you from the inside using kingspan.

i presume you use solid crownboards (or at least cover the feeder hole(s)).?

as per above - 1-2 squares of 50mm kingspan.

OMF open.

 

[itma]

no need to tape around the crownboards - the bees will do the job for you from the inside using kingspan.
...

Long night or an early start, Doctor?

Anything involving insulation board I have to do for my bees. It is beyond their capabilities!
Given half a chance, they will improve the draught-proofing for themselves, with propolis.
Using (bottom bee space) 14x12s, I put insulation board above the framed, see-through crownboard.
I think drstitson, using top bee space Dadant/Langstroths extensively, may possibly use a flat sheet of insulation board as the crown board itself.



I know Finman, with his serious winters, uses solid rather than mesh floors.
However, I'm surprised that Aberdeen would be cold enough to need that. Up in the hills, maybe, but around the city?

Rather than mere solid wooden floors, I would have thought that a cold climate would direct one towards better insulated hives - specifically expanded or foamed plastics. They are the norm in Finland!
The forum's UK orthodoxy is that dampness from condensation is best controlled by using insulation above (and potentially around) the brood box, with the ventilation being from below, via a mesh-covered floor opening - which also permits free drainage.
Some do indeed use an empty super between stand and floor, or floor and brood, to reduce turbulent draughts under the colony. But those seem to be the ones with exposed apiary sites.

Have you tried any poly hives?

 

[Madge]

... I'm not a fan of the varoa wire mesh floor as they are prone to letting the cold into the hive when theres a hard frost.. ...

With a solid floor, Graham, what do you do for ventilation in the winter? Is the reduced entrance the only opening you have, and is that sufficient?

...I'm surprised that Aberdeen would be cold enough to need that. Up in the hills, maybe, but around the city? ...

Surprised? You shouldn't be, Itma. However, it's not so much the cold that bothers me, it's the strong winds - particularly on my hill. Despite most of my hives being double broods, I'm sure the wind can blow into the hive and all the way up to the top brood box. Like Graham, I'm worried about open mesh floors. I've kept the trays in, but drilled holes in them or pulled them slightly out for ventilation.

Kitta

 

[itma]

Surprised? You shouldn't be, Itma. However, it's not so much the cold that bothers me, it's the strong winds - particularly on my hill. ...

I don't remember Cults (and Aberdeen) being amazingly cold. But way back then, I didn't have anywhere else to compare against ... (I was VERY young!)
No question colder than down here in the far south, but I'd expect there to be more difference between the city and the hills than between here and the city.

My point really was that I'd expect microclimate and exposure to be even more important apiary considerations than down here.

 

[Graham40]

To answer a few questions from the list, I was hoping to find out how other beekeepers prepared their stocks.

1) I dont have that much of a problem with the damp inside the hive because I remove the 2 outer bars this allows the air to circulate better. We also have thermal crown boards with an area in the centre for feeding Roofs are lined with foam inserts. plus a quilt. My losses are reasonably low, most losses coming in March when old and new queens fail particularly if its been a wet year - short mating flights = poor life expectancy.

2) I have polystyrene Nationals both 12x14 and standard, however they have their own specific problems when it comes to cleaning them, and most importantly they are not heavy enough to survive a blast of wind (occupants may be in for a rough ride if the wind catches the box, I have them banded together with ratchet straps) and can only be used in very sheltered areas, they smash up easily if they take a direct hit from a falling branch so care has to be taken when siting them. I have been using these for a while.

3) for my more exposed site I use the ultimate heavy weight, which is the Glen a 15 bar monster which can survive anything the winter throws at it, the bees thrive in these and I have never suffered a loss in this type of hive. I want more of these. The enterance is under the hive and is sheltered from wind rain etc, also i don't have to shield the hive from the sun when there's snow on the ground this prevents casualties from bees alighting on the snow.

4) I had samples from all 3 nationals that were lost in 2009 sent for testing and inspection, there was no disease or nosema present no fouling of the combs, all three were large colonies they froze to death as the ground under the hives had heavy frost, it had got down to -10. I have not been forgiven for incurring these losses. Head beekeeper was most upset that Id chosen 3 hives to over winter on mesh floors and all 3 had died out, those on wooden solid floors survived. They were also my only losses that year.

 

[Little John]

I don't really understand what is meant by 'damp'.

I know what this means in a building intended for human habitation, but in a bee-hive ?

An organism which lives in a cavity lined with water-impenetrable wax and propolis and which lives on sugars, one waste product of which is water, is going to be living in a high-humidity environment. So at what point does this high-humidity become 'damp' ?

LJ

 

[Madge]

I don't remember Cults (and Aberdeen) being amazingly cold. ...
My point really was that I'd expect microclimate and exposure to be even more important apiary considerations ...

Yes, you're right, I had two hives in a friend's garden in Cults for a year or so, and those colonies had a cushy time compared to the bees on my exposed hill.
Kitta

 

[Madge]

... I was hoping to find out how other beekeepers prepared their stocks.

I'm a fourth-year beekeeper - so still a bit of a novice. This year I'm overwintering most of my hives on double broods with some outside frames (particularly in the top box) replaced by insulated dummy boards. I'll remember the suggestion of removing frames for the sake of ventilation.

Apart from a couple of sheltered hives, I left the Varroa boards in but with holes in them (as I've already mentioned above).

Crown boards (some transparent) with candy on top of feeder holes, and candy covered with a transparent tub. This year, wool inside the ekes. This made a huge difference in my only wooden hive: it's nice and dry with no mould.

So far, I've never lost a colony over winter despite my location. I hope that will be true for this year as well.

... I have polystyrene Nationals ... most importantly they are not heavy enough to survive a blast of wind (occupants may be in for a rough ride if the wind catches the box, I have them banded together with ratchet straps) and can only be used in very sheltered areas ...

My bees are on a really exposed site, Graham, suffering from frequent and incredibly strong wind. I have not noticed that the polystyrene hives are any worse off than wooden ones - but I have them strapped together as a hive, and also onto the stand which is weighted down.

...for my more exposed site I use the ultimate heavy weight, which is the Glen a 15 bar monster ...

Interesting. I did not know the Glen is still in use by beekeepers. I'll look into it.
Kitta

 

[drstitson]

yep early start - thinking one line ahead - propolis.

 

[Graham40]

Ok, Damp as Dr Palmer describes it, Bees exhail a lot of moisture the moisture has to go somewhere, it normally condenses on the outer areas of the hive where its coldest. Now if you keep the outer frames in they go moldy, these should be the oldest frames anyway and due for recycling I always move the oldest frames outward new wax go's in the centre of the colony where its warmest for drawing out... Im sure if you keep your frames in that you will have seen this before? unless you use match sticks under the crown board for ventilation which is not possible in my area.

Ok bees need to gather water even in winter... they need it to be able to eat the candy or fondant, so they gather it from the hive walls itself no need to go out for water. If you don't have enough space around the hive below and at the sides the air dosen't flow the same and you get more mold forming on the actual combs, i.e. the damp to much damp combs and you have a problem.

 

[Finman]

.
What is damp?

When bees consume food, sugar burns to carbon oxide and water . Boath must get out. 15 kg sugar produces 10 kg water.

Respiration moisture condensates in dew point and forms droplets.
In wooden hive moisture goes party inside the wood, and in polyhive it condensates onto walls and drils to bottom.

When cluster has too big hive, moisture condensates onto combs, where ever the dew point is.

When I have here -10C, condensation forms snow inside polyhive. When weather is warmer, snow melts and drills to bottom.

In a cellar, where temp is near zero and there is no air movement, bees get nosema and half of cluster will die. At same time bees survive better in normal frost weather.

1) My system is solid bottom, 20cm x 0,8 cm main entrance and 1.5 cm upper entrance + polyhive + 7cm insulation in inner cover.

2) If guys here use mesh floor, then there is no upper opening.

3) Very essential is to constrict the bees to as small room as possible.
Then bees have no free space to be warmed and dew point exists outside the hive.

4) When we dry up here interior, we do not ventilate it more but we raise a little bit temperature. Then relative humidity keeps the hive dry.

When I dig my hives from snow in March, bottoms have often 1 cm ice. Then it melts. It takes time that bees can clean the bottom. That is why I change them before spring.

When solid bottom is in slanting position, water drills out from hive.

5) When hive has brood in Spring, it is advange if the ventilation is small. The hive temperature is high and it keeps the hive dry.
Some think that they must "dry up" hives with ventilation after winter but that is really wrong idea.
My ventilation are is only 5% out of mesh floor.

.

My inner cover respirates. It allows some of moisture go through the construction. Quite much will condensate on metal roof inner surface. Then it ventilates from there.

There are many solutions which work and beeks are ready to kill (not die) for their unique systems.

(PS I hate those thermodynamic guys)

.

 

[Finman]

Ok, Damp as Dr Palmer describes it, Bees exhail a lot of moisture the moisture has to go somewhere, it normally condenses on the outer areas of the hive where its coldest.
....

That is right. One reason to get moldy franmes is that colony has too big room for winter. If all frames are occupied before winter clustering, they will not get mold.


....

Now if you keep the outer frames in they go moldy, these should be the oldest frames anyway and due for recycling I always move the oldest frames outward new wax go's in the centre of the colony where its warmest for drawing out....

I did this once and then come a day when my yard had only old frames.


I put foundation or white comb against the wall for winter. Pollen frame surely gets mold and ferment in periphery.
Then they draw foundations when they are ready to it.

I put oldest combs inthe centre and when they are dark , I take away of lift to super to be filled with honey.

Bees use to store pollen in old frames next to brood. So I situate light brown frames in places where they use to store pollen.
If they store pollen into too old comb, I put it into the centre of brood area and bees make it full of larvae and consume all pollen of. When it is full of brood, I lift it to super.

 

[Graham40]

Thank you, for the reply you have a point with the area the bees cover, I will remember this for next year. What about stores I assume that because you have colder weather the bees cant get to their stores and so theres less movment in the hive in winter. i.e. in colder climates they require less actual stores because they are in a deeper hibarnation pattern. Here in Aberdeenshire Scotland Bernard Mobus did a lot of research on brood raising in winter and found that brood was still being produced in small quantities throught the winter, this keeps the temperature up but also consumes food.

What stores do your hives carry going into the winter in Finland?
We feed heavily here from September to October topping up the frames with stores for winter, we feed a burst of syrup at the end of February begining of March to get them going with Brood raising. If I remove more than to frames I feel that I wouldn't have enough stores to get to the point I can start feeding liquid again, Candy is ok but its really a safety blanket, some dont even touch it.

I also feed Pollen substitute in spring to help start brood rearing, I have experimented with feedbee and they dont like it!

 

[MuswellMetro]

my preffered method is

vented 8" cedar roof insulated with permanant 50mm polystryrene
50mm of kingspan with a removablel fondant tub cut out
Sealed feed Crown board
14x12
OMF, board removed but sealed at back
Empty Super
Stand

My stands are high due to flooding and i have problems with sheep so i strap the hole hives down to a large paving slab and the strap goes under the slab

The site is in an old walled garden so sheltered from the north and west winds but is a damp and being at the bottom of a large north facing hill is a frost hollow (-10c this year and i am in London outskirts)

 

[Finman]

Thank you, for the reply you have a point with the area the bees cover, I will remember this for next year. What about stores I assume that because you have colder weather the bees cant get to their stores and so theres less movment in the hive in winter. i.e.


What stores do your hives carry going into the winter in Finland? !

I really know what is your winter there. I can see your temperatus and I know your rains.


What is our beewinter.

From September, Och and Nov. ..... temps above zero. No snow.

December to March continuous snow. No temp over zero.

April. Snow melts and nights under zero and days above zero 5-10C.

May : grass starts to grow in the first hal of month. Willow blooms the whole month.

What is the real difference: brood break is 6 months. veru few brood because they do not get pollen.

BUT 5 months in our bee winter are the sam as yours. No difference. Bee are in winter mode because they get nothing from outside.


Our hives consume 20 kg on average sugar during 9-8 months. Reason is that they have no brood-

In May the hives consume allready 10 kg in a month, but in autumn they consume only 1 kg /month.
May here is like March in England

The heat loss from hive is bigger when they keep brood temperature inside.
That is why insulation is valuable in your climate, but that you cannot understand.

.
I Alaska, which has almost same temps, a beekeeper wrote that he uses 50 kg sugar per hive. He had 80 hives.



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