Feeding Bees though the winter.

Juststarting said:

DAF - are you sure about your numbers - if you're feeding 2:1 syrup - 5ltrs of syrup will contain 10 kg of sugar (20lb+) stored at 80% sugar to water you'd have 12.5 kg of stores (25lb+) thats alot more frames!

If I am completely wrong - a strong possibility-could someone let me know as otherwise I will be severely underfeeding my bees.

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when i feed winterfood, i give in 2 days 15 litres syrup. Then i keep a pause an give the rest after one week. Pause is usefull because bees will still emerge and bees can fill emerged cells.

I execute winter feedig in one week. If feeding is prolonged it irritates bees to start brood rearing again.

Polyannwood, thanks for explaining!

- I've never fed syrup in Spring so it didn't occurr to me.

No no no - Fondent and syrup are for two differant uses - I will use syrup 1.5ltr : 3 bags of sugar (1lb bags)

The idea is to give them heaps to fed upon and take down in to the main hive and convert it useable stores - they need time to do this. it takes them a few weeks to convert it into usable stores ready for the cluster. You can only feed the bees when they hane time to work it and before they cluster.
After they cluster and you realise they hives "light" and if your worried you can give them fondent, which they can feed directly on.

I use fondent as emergency food only..
this is they way I understand it anyhow...

richardbees said:

Polyannwood, thanks for explaining!

- I've never fed syrup in Spring so it didn't occurr to me.

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in spring I pour syrup directly into combs.

I wonder how you are able to find so much problems in sugar feeding?
I know only one problem that it takes money.

Fondant is so expencive that I have not used it at all.
.

this is they way I understand it anyhow...


I am presuming you know the difference between 2:1 and 1:1 sugar:water mixes and have got it completely wrong in your post (perhaps by mixing imperial and metric units).

Some commercial beekeepers apparently use fondant for autumn feed, readying for winter, because the overall costs (including labour costs) is no so different.

Regards, RAB

Tim1606 said:

Do you have to freeze the frames as we have a super that we are going to use if we have too?

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The one thing you need to remmeber is that if at all possable - you should only give frozen frames back to the same hive it was collected from - this reduces the chance of infections and deseases from spreeding (even though there shouldnt be anything thats suvived the freezer), however if you have little choice and you need to .. lets face it, we all have to be realistic - you do whats nessesary.
The first chance we get in the spring.. we feed back the defrosted frames (NEVER give it frozzen or you'll bring down the core temp) This allows the colonly to start recovery and gives a good boost. Infact Im sure its saved a complete starve in one or two instances.
We teather our "out hives" together to help securitey and safety during the winter months - after they have clustered, so its hard to weigh them.. thats why we act so quickly in the first exceptable days of spring..
Feeding them a super.. well why not although again.. make sure its warm enough - DO NOT bring down the core temp.. but they may come up into the super on warmer days.. or when the sun hits the hives

you should only give frozen frames back to the same hive it was collected from

Shirley, I agree with the other parts but this bit is baffling.. Surely you would not even contemplate feezing a frame if there were a high risk of disease pathogens present?

Apart from that I would expect, with 12 colonies, that you occasionally swap brood frames into other colonies, or use frames from two or more coloniess to make up nucs, or move frames of stores from well-stocked colonies to less well-stocked ones. I certainly do. Bees will drift from one hive to another within an apiary, drones will be accepted into different hives, etc.

Freezing may rid the comb of waxmoth or other small pests but not of disease spores - would need ethanoic fumigation for nosema spores, for instance.

I would not hesitate to exchange a colony position with another in an apiary if a colony was in need of more foragers, for instance. I don't keep diseased colonies, they are either treated or otherwise dealt with and are unlikely to yield excess store frames for later use anyway.

Regards, RAB

This feeding a nuc with fondant.

PH

Uncapped stores

My broodbox is getting towards full, though later than I would like for various reasons, but quite a lot of it's uncapped. I've now switched from syrup to fondant as it gets colder. Two questions- 1) does it matter if there's uncapped stores? and 2) will they top it up from the fondant? Some people on this thread seem to suggest that they won't convert fondant to stores, but some people seem to feed nothing but.

PS the good news is they've got plenty of pollen!

After they cluster they will not be spreading around the hive, so fondant is the way to go for feeding during the winter. In the autumn, if the bees can fly for water they may store fondant as sugar honey.

They have evolved to feed on 16-20% water in the honey for the winter only. They cannot really have so much brood without more water being brought - either as water or nectar.

While unclustered there is time for them to cap the cells; afterwards, too late. If there is uncapped comb it is likely to ferment and cause serious problems for the bees. I would get them insulated to prevent them cooling and clustering.

I think, with one hive I might remove any uncapped frames not near the bees, after flying has ceased (pick a warm day), close them up with a divider and pop the frame(s) in the freezer (vertically!) feeding back early in the spring when brooding re-starts. It is far more important your hive does not get damp - so an OMF is imperative, I would think.

Hope this helps. Usually the bees know best and will cap those frames, but try to make it easier for them, help them - get that insulation on and around the hive.

Regards, RAB

oliver90owner said:

get that insulation on and around the hive.

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RAB,

I know that it is important to insulate the crown board but how do you insulate the outside of the hive- do you literally just wrap the hive in material? I obviously missed this in my preparation last winter!


Thanks, Ben P

Ben,

Skyhook has a problem which needs attention or he may lose his colony. Side insulation is good - sheets of polystyrene - to emulate a polyhive, but many would just not bother.

Regards, RAB

oliver90owner said:

While unclustered there is time for them to cap the cells; afterwards, too late. If there is uncapped comb it is likely to ferment and cause serious problems for the bees. I would get them insulated to prevent them cooling and clustering.

I think, with one hive I might remove any uncapped frames not near the bees, after flying has ceased (pick a warm day), close them up with a divider and pop the frame(s) in the freezer (vertically!) feeding back early in the spring when brooding re-starts. It is far more important your hive does not get damp - so an OMF is imperative, I would think.

Hope this helps. Usually the bees know best and will cap those frames, but try to make it easier for them, help them - get that insulation on and around the hive.

Regards, RAB

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Thanks Rab. Unfortunately its every frame that's about 1/2- 2/3 capped- they seem determined to work evenly across the whole box.

they are on OMF with a roof-full of insulation. I've been thinking about changing the 6" roof for a 9", I'll try to do that this weekend, then get some insulation on the sides.

Close up the floor for a week. That would help them now.

Regards, RAB

So long as the hive does not have any condensation (or very, very minimal), then they will be ok, possibly even better, for the cold.
Bees can stand the cold, they can't stand dampness or wet.

Depending on your area and location of course, as to how cold it really gets to and stays at, a cold period is what the bees expect. They are likely to remain broodless for longer and move around the hive less, thus conserving stores.

Imo, by providing a milder atmosphere, you are doing more harm than good, if it is to insulate the hive, rather than prevent condensation.

When there's a lack of natural pollen anyway, I'd rather my bees weren't needlessly flying to try and find it.

Edit - If a colony was small, then what I have done is dummy them in and put polystyrene in the vain space to conserve heat.

Obviously every case is individual and insulation is sometimes needed, or very helpful.
On a strong colony, I would think it more of a hinderance though, is what I was trying to say.
The wax is a great absorber of heat anyway. Bees have their own thermodynamics and it serves them well.

Skyhook said:

Thanks Rab. Unfortunately its every frame that's about 1/2- 2/3 capped- they seem determined to work evenly across the whole box.

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Skyhook,

I reckon there will still be two or three weeks to go before they start clustering so there will still be time for them to cap the stores. In my view the bees would not be collecting all the ivy now if they knew that they did not have time to cap it before clustering.

Ben P

oliver90owner said:

you should only give frozen frames back to the same hive it was collected from

Shirley, I agree with the other parts but this bit is baffling.. Surely you would not even contemplate feezing a frame if there were a high risk of disease pathogens present?

Apart from that I would expect, with 12 colonies, that you occasionally swap brood frames into other colonies, or use frames from two or more coloniess to make up nucs, or move frames of stores from well-stocked colonies to less well-stocked ones. I certainly do. Bees will drift from one hive to another within an apiary, drones will be accepted into different hives, etc.

Freezing may rid the comb of waxmoth or other small pests but not of disease spores - would need ethanoic fumigation for nosema spores, for instance.

I would not hesitate to exchange a colony position with another in an apiary if a colony was in need of more foragers, for instance. I don't keep diseased colonies, they are either treated or otherwise dealt with and are unlikely to yield excess store frames for later use anyway.

Regards, RAB

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Thats why i said we have to be realistic - in an ideal world we would have snow white overalls and a set o hive tools for each hive lol .. but yes we do interchange.. As yet we havent had a problem with any desease and if i even suspected a problem it would be oved away and treated on another site.
I do imderstand that it only sorts out wax moth too.
Maybe I didnt make my self very well understood.. sorry bout that

Shirley, that's all right. I somehow thought you did know. The problem arises when a new beek sees your post in isolation and remembers 'the wrong end of the stick' for life.

Before very long these small omissions become 'dogmatic by-laws' in the minds of some, for keeping bees, and seem to spread much faster and more firmly than the correct interpretation.

An example is moving the 'hatching queen colony' from one side of the parent colony to the other as part of the artificial swarming procedure. It is often touted that it is for strengthening the parent colony with flying bees so there is less loss of crop.

True, it will have that effect, but the primary reason for doing it is to reduce the risk of a cast swarm - few flying bees therefore the first emerging queen. if there are two retained cells, will sort out the other at the earliest opportunity, rather than swarming with only a very few bees.

The wrong reason is often quoted, as the person has heard it but not questioned the validity - and it sounds a sensible reason. I have even seen it in print.

Regards, RAB

RAB,

Replenishment with flying bees is what Ted Hooper gives in his books as the reason for moving the new broodbox from side to side.

He never mentioned it was to reduce the risk of a cast swarm....

...now it's too late... "and so it goes"

richard

richardbees,

Replenishment with flying bees is what Ted Hooper

Let's just think about this a little more deeply. Flying bees collect the nectar for honey. A queenless hive will collect just as much nectarper forager as the colony next door.

The difference (apparent) is that the queenless side collects little honey. Why? Because they are still feeding umpteen larvae. As the reduction of larvae happens, the rate of honey increase will accelerate.

No matter where they are, 'x' number of foragers will collect the same amount of nectar. Moving them from one colony to the other will not affect that value, but will improve the storing rate in the 'old queen' colony, which already has more than enough stores (the supers).

Yes, it will ensure theat colony has a continuous generation of foragers, but it is swings and roundabouts - the other will have an over-abundance of house bees, twiddling their antennae for about a week, too.

So why bother to move them? By the end of the season, both hives will have the same total honey content, won't they? Still with me?

Therefore that is no valid reason for moving the queenless colony.

However, now consider the possible issue of a cast swarm. Strong hive, loads of capped brood, lots (relatively for swarming as a cast) of flying bees and two viable queen cells (most sensible beeks leave two - unless they are not bothered by the risk of a duff queen cell). Is a secondary swarm more likely with or without flying bees? I think so.

Can I rest my case at that point. Hooper is wrong.

Regards, RAB