Worst winter ever

[pargyle]

Any idea Pargyle what your bees were feeding on last year especially prior to winter?

I live on the edge of Fareham and within a mile radius I have mature domestic gardens, allotments and a railway cutting with a variety of wild flowers. There are mature horse chestnut trees, sycamores and limes on the road verges just outside my garden, there are lots of cherry trees and blackthorn and hawthorn in the hedgerows as well - so they have a real mix of forage and a consistent source of food right the way through from spring to autumn. Within 1.5 miles I had fields of rape in late spring but they seemed to ignore that as there was no evidence of crystallised honey. Going into winter they were all over the ivy in my garden so I suspect there is a fair bit of ivy honey left in the hives. None of them have been fed since May when the two polys (result of a swarm leaving my main hive) were building comb in the new hives.

 

[pargyle]

It is about time some people grew up, open their minds a little and realise the term 'chemicals' is not inherently bad. Life, the planet and everything is made up of chemicals. Some are good, some are bad and some will provide you with healthy colonies that are capable of surviving winter.

I hope that wasn't directed at me Ely ? .. I didn't say anything about chemicals being bad ... indeed, I didn't even mention chemicals as far as I can see. What I reported was what I do and what I see in my colonies.

I'm not an evangelist for not treating bees but I do have a concern that some people may be treating unnecessarily ... or just too much. Because they have been told by the likes of Finman (frequently !!) that their bees will die.

Hivemaker (whose opinions as a beefarmer I respect) says he no longer does Oxalic in winter ... but a lot of the deadouts reported appear to be OA dribbling in winter - is it too much ? I don't know ..

My view is that treatments (and my preferred treatment, should I feel it necessary, would be OA sublimation as it appears to be the least invasive of the organic treatments) should be applied if the colony is showing signs of weakness and after proper testing for varroa - drone cell uncapping, sugar roll or alcohol wash - yes, I count varroa on the inspection board but it's not the complete picture which you can only get from counting live mites.

It's not a case of being 'grown up' about treatment - it's about taking a measured and considered approach to colony management, assessing the extent of the problem and acting accordingly - which may or may not include treatment. There are ways of helping the colonies control the levels of varroa as well as those which some people would class as 'chemicals'.

I do have a concern that subjecting bees to a variety of treatments - some of which they clearly don't like (you must have seen bees hanging about outside the hive when thymol or formic acid is introduced) - when they may be coping without it - is leaving bees less able to do what they have been doing for millennia - adapt and survive. Treat if you feel they need it ... but not just because someone told you to.

 

[Cussword]

Would the general consensus be that it is wise to treat a swarm?

 

[pargyle]

Would the general consensus be that it is wise to treat a swarm?

I would if there was evidence of a heavy varroa load (probably leave them for a few days to settle in and then use OA sublimation).

But... varroa in the hive tend to be found mostly on the nurse bees ... if you think about it varroa really don't want to be flown around on the back of a flying bee ... where they want to be is ready to jump into a drone cell and get on with their breeding. So, I think that most swarms are going to be relatively low on varroa but ... when they have swarmed it's a time (before they start brooding) when you could get rid of most of the phoretic mites.

Against that, you are treating a colony which is going to be at its most productive in terms of establishing themselves, building comb and getting the queen laying like crazy - do you really want to disturb them to that extent by treating them ? - and is there a possibility that filling their new home with an alien substance going to send them off on the hunt for a new home ?

I know that's not an answer ... just food for thought.

 

[Cussword]

Now I'm even more confused seriously though, thanks.

So it's really a case of letting them establish themselves, but to check and then treat, if needed, before she starts laying?

 

[pargyle]

Now I'm even more confused seriously though, thanks.

So it's really a case of letting them establish themselves, but to check and then treat, if needed, before she starts laying?

Well ... you might not manage it before she starts laying as a good swarm queen will start laying the moment she has a cell to lay in (almost). If they are housed in a hive that already has comb she will start immediately .. if they have to build out comb a swarm can fill out a frame a day given some syrup and good foraging conditions so by 5 days in they will be well established.

When I got my bees it was from a local swarm .. there were absolutely no signs of varroa on them and for my first year of beekeeping I had no varroa in the hive (and yes ... I did some very intensive checking as I didn't believe it either). Varroa arrived year 2 or at the very end of year 1 but I think I was lucky.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Would the general consensus be that it is wise to treat a swarm?

You're not going to get a consensus, because theonly time beekeepers agree is when they agree to differ!

Some beekeepers will treat a swarm for varroa using any of the various methods available because they think is the right thing to do, because they think it's more likely to remove almost all mites on the bees and so delay any build up etc..

Others will reason there are few mites on a swarm because they'll have been left behind in the developing drone larvae, and there's no point in stressing a 'new' colony and perhaps affecting a virgin queen's chances of mating by slightly altering her scent etc.

 

[Finman]

Hivemaker (whose opinions as a beefarmer I respect) says he no longer does Oxalic in winter ... but a lot of the deadouts reported appear to be OA dribbling in winter - is it too much ? I don't know ..

I do not know any cases that normal dribbling kills hives.

Where are those reports, that OA has killed hives? The methods have been used 15 years, and in many countries almost 100% of beekeepers use that. At least professionals use trickling, and in my country twice a winter is usual.


But treated hives may die easily. That is the issue now in Finland too. When mite level has raised too high, normal treatment does not save hives any more.

There are cases that with 30 years experience guys have lost all hives, and they were tens. When our specialists have inspected the hives, the answer has been VARROA:

One guy lost 50-80% of his hives during a decade. The reason was wrong timing. He had handled hives every year with formic acid and oxalic.

Ocalix acid hits down the mite amount, that mite population does not reach critical limit before next autumn. It does not save any bees during treatment winter.

 

[Hivemaker.]

... but a lot of the deadouts reported appear to be OA dribbling in winter - is it too much ? I don't know ..

Yes it is too much, it does too much harm to the bees, causes too many losses and is not needed.

 

[Finman]

Originally Posted by pargyle View Post
... but a lot of the deadouts reported appear to be OA dribbling in winter - is it too much ? I don't know ..

Yes it is too much, it does too much harm to the bees, causes too many losses and is not needed.

Can you show research reports how it happens. I have not seen.

 

[Ely]

I hope that wasn't directed at me Ely ? .. I didn't say anything about chemicals being bad ... indeed, I didn't even mention chemicals as far as I can see. What I reported was what I do and what I see in my colonies.

I'm not an evangelist for not treating bees but I do have a concern that some people may be treating unnecessarily ... or just too much. Because they have been told by the likes of Finman (frequently !!) that their bees will die.

Hivemaker (whose opinions as a beefarmer I respect) says he no longer does Oxalic in winter ... but a lot of the deadouts reported appear to be OA dribbling in winter - is it too much ? I don't know ..

My view is that treatments (and my preferred treatment, should I feel it necessary, would be OA sublimation as it appears to be the least invasive of the organic treatments) should be applied if the colony is showing signs of weakness and after proper testing for varroa - drone cell uncapping, sugar roll or alcohol wash - yes, I count varroa on the inspection board but it's not the complete picture which you can only get from counting live mites.

It's not a case of being 'grown up' about treatment - it's about taking a measured and considered approach to colony management, assessing the extent of the problem and acting accordingly - which may or may not include treatment. There are ways of helping the colonies control the levels of varroa as well as those which some people would class as 'chemicals'.

I do have a concern that subjecting bees to a variety of treatments - some of which they clearly don't like (you must have seen bees hanging about outside the hive when thymol or formic acid is introduced) - when they may be coping without it - is leaving bees less able to do what they have been doing for millennia - adapt and survive. Treat if you feel they need it ... but not just because someone told you to.

No. Not directed at anyone in particular. Sorry if it seemed that way. I just think it is important for people to realise the importance of treatments and not just dismiss them because they are 'chemicals'. Everything is chemicals

 

[jonnybeegood]

Yes it is too much, it does too much harm to the bees, causes too many losses and is not needed.

I treated 3 hives & 3 nucs with OA at % 3.2 & suffered no losses, apart from varroa, & i'm just a beginner, surely if OA kills bees mine would all be dead? Maybe people mix too strong a mixture, maybe they use old stuff, maybe they dribble too much, maybe the bees werent healthy to start. Lots of maybes, but you cant blame it on OA or we would all be losing bees, there must be other factors involved.

 

[Hivemaker.]

but you cant blame it on OA or we would all be losing bees, there must be other factors involved.

Yes i can, and i do, far too many losses due to oxalic acid trickling, and it is not even needed in the first place, completely unnecessary.

 

[wessexmario]

It's my first winter, both of my hives seem quite strong, but I don't have much to compare them against. I'm wondering what the baseline case is for winter bee deaths for a healthy hive, to help diagnosis if/when a hive becomes weak.

On a first inspection after winter with a healthy hive, how many dead bees would you expect to find on the hive floor and outside under the entrance?

 

[pargyle]

On a first inspection after winter with a healthy hive, how many dead bees would you expect to find on the hive floor and outside under the entrance?

Hardly any on mine ... the bees seem to clear them out. Even in my long deep hive where they have to hoist them up to an entrance very near the top of the hive I don't see many on the mesh floor.

I see the odd one or two on the landing boards but I have never seen 'piles' of them.

All colonies have undertaker bees and if they are doing their job then there shouldn't be piles of dead bees except in exceptional circumstances - where a protracted period of bad weather has kept them in the cluster for instance - or where the colony has suffered a trauma or disease.

 

[Thymallus]

All colonies have undertaker bees and if they are doing their job then there shouldn't be piles of dead bees except in exceptional circumstances -

It's a variable genetic trait, some bees do it well some don't.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Dara Scott video, performing a sugar shake test for varroa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE457iSYXM4

 

[Amari]

Nice demo. D'you know if the sugar shaker is available commercially?

 

[Hivemaker.]

Nice demo. D'you know if the sugar shaker is available commercially?

Not seen any, Amari, but easy to make from a plastic jar by cutting a hole in the lid and inserting a piece of mesh, or using a Kilner jar with just the lid rim holding in the mesh, plastic version is better though, lighter and less chance of breaking.

 

[wessexmario]

How about a "mesh sugar shaker" ?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=m...tr:countryUK|countryGB&cr=countryUK|countryGB