Wintering over an empty super

[Skyhook]

People often talk about putting an empty super under the floor- but is there any reason why it shouldn't be used between floor and BB?

I see the biggest source of draught as being likely to be the tray slot. Obviously if you leave it too late in spring they're likely to build wild comb, but I can't see too much building going on over winter?

Opinions please.

 

[enrico]

I have never put one under the floor! Only over the floor and under the bb! But with frames of food in which they then empty
E

 

[Davelin]

I have never put one under the floor! Only over the floor and under the bb! But with frames of food in which they then empty
E

 

[oliver90owner]

With 14 x 12, they are much less likely to be building wild comb than under a deep box.

I over-wintered on 14 x 12, deeps with empty shallow below and with a shallow with frames (all with OMF) and with a deep over solid floor as comparisons in my third year (I think). All four colonies in a row in my garden. The deeps did not have a box of honey above.

Only needed to do it one winter to presuade myself to go to 14 x 12 format with OMF, even though against all the advice from my BKA.

While it was not the only consideration for my choice, it was one factor.

RAB

 

[Hawklord]

They don't build the comb in winter but certainly do in September/October. When I do the first inspection in spring I remove the under combs and go back to a standard brood on the omf.

 

[Dared]

Getting a little confused now as some say super under the bb for winter others above? Surely you should be setting the hive up for the bees to move up and into the warmer area as winter gets colder therefore needs some rearranging of the hive? But how do you do this on a std national bb if it cannot hold enough food for the whole winter? Is it super underneath to start and then as supplies exhausted the bees move up into the warmer bb and remove super in spring?

Have ignored 14x12 and double brood as trying to simplify things!

 

[kazmcc]

Getting a little confused now as some say super under the bb for winter others above? Surely you should be setting the hive up for the bees to move up and into the warmer area as winter gets colder therefore needs some rearranging of the hive? But how do you do this on a std national bb if it cannot hold enough food for the whole winter? Is it super underneath to start and then as supplies exhausted the bees move up into the warmer bb and remove super in spring?

Have ignored 14x12 and double brood as trying to simplify things!

Good question Dared, I'll be interested to see what people answer. All my equipment is national, yet I am told a national won't hold enough stores to over winter. I gave my bees a full super on top of a national bb for winter. Have I been doing it the wrong way around? I thought they moved up over winter. I would rather they had one box to keep warm while wintering. Can it be done with a national?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Best on top where the bees would put their stores in a bigger box?
If the queen is laying in the super come Spring then it's easy enough to coax her into the lower box and pop in an excluder.
I nadir supers on some hives so that the bees move uncapped honey into the brood box before winter ,but then I run 14 x 12s.

 

[kazmcc]

Best on top where the bees would put their stores in a bigger box?
If the queen is laying in the super come Spring then it's easy enough to coax her into the lower box and pop in an excluder.
I nadir supers on some hives so that the bees move uncapped honey into the brood box before winter ,but then I run 14 x 12s.

Thanks EricA, that's what I thought. All this talk of putting supers under bb's is confusing me lol. Why do people do that, out of interest?

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

I nadir supers on some hives so that the bees move uncapped honey into the brood box before winter ,but then I run 14 x 12s.

Same here.

Those last unfilled frames go into one super, under my 14 x 12 brood box, for them to transfer to the bb in the following weeks of autumn.

Means they have more of their own stores and I need feed less.

Dusty

 

[Moggett]

Thanks EricA, that's what I thought. All this talk of putting supers under bb's is confusing me lol. Why do people do that, out of interest?

Most UK winters have mild periods where the bees are active, e.g. I've seen them flying on Christmas Day in the past. During these periods of milder temperatures the bees move stores from the super under the BB to top up the stores there. You can often tell when this is happening as you see evidence of uncapping under the hive. Obviously if we had month long periods of very cold weather they would not do this so fondant would have to be fed to make up any deficit - especially around February.

I personally like to give them thymolated syrup due to problems in the past with nosema. So putting a super on the bottom will prevent them moving the syrup into the drawn super combs causing them to taint.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Getting a little confused now as some say super under the bb for winter others above?

Good question Dared, I'll be interested to see what people answer.

OP is about using an empty super, or a super containing empty frames, to keep the cluster higher than, or further away from, the open mesh floor and any draughts. It isn't about food, food storage, or access to winter supplies.

 

[kazmcc]

OP is about using an empty super, or a super containing empty frames, to keep the cluster higher than, or further away from, the open mesh floor and any draughts. It isn't about food, food storage, or access to winter supplies.

Thanks BeeJoyful. So how many people over-winter this way? How much of a difference does it make? Does that not mean they have a larger area to keep warm, or is it the same, just higher up and out of draughts?

 

[Dishmop]

But how do you do this on a std national bb if it cannot hold enough food for the whole winter? Is it super underneath to start and then as supplies exhausted the bees move up into the warmer bb and remove super in spring?

But how do you do this on a std national bb if it cannot hold enough food for the whole winter?

The discussion is about an empty super but stores should be upstairs.. When they have used whats in the brood area they move upwards to the stores...

They arent programmed to move down to food.

Bees build from the top....Queen lays eggs...Workers keep building downwards.
As bees emerge the cells are then used to store food. And so it goes on.

 

[Hawklord]

Under supering provides space for the bees whilst creating more space for stores in the brood box. I prefer to under super as I can claim the super back straight away in spring. Also I think using frames in the super might provide a gap between stores, which if they reach at the coldest part of winter might lead to isolation starvation.

 

[kazmcc]

Ok, let me get this straight. You put a super under the bb, with stores? They consume the stores then move on up into the bb during the colder part of winter, leaving the super free to take away come spring but also leaving that super as a nice extra space to protect from draughts while it is in place.

So at what stage do you add this under super?

Like Dishmop said, I thought food was upstairs. Does this not cause problems with space being left in the bb where the brood would have been? Does this not cause them to work harder moving stores up into that space where the brood would recently have been?

 

[Hawklord]

The super is added when I clear the honey supers. There is nothing in the under super until they build comb on the bottom of the brood frames in the brood box. If my memory is right a 14 x 12 brood box is 300mm deep, where as a standard brood is 225mm deep and a super is 150mm deep so the space I provide is 75mm deeper than a 14 x 12.

 

[enrico]

Everything has been covered in one answer or another. Just for your info I do as you suggested, if I have spare food in a super in autumn, rather than feeding, I put the super under the bb. The bees will take up what they can and fill any spaces in the bb with the food. They will leave any extra in the super. They will start to use this super food first. They will then move up into the bb. In late winter I slip the super out before the queen starts laying in it. It is a judgement call depending on weather conditions etc. that then gives me a nice clean super to use for the main flow. I work with nationals and would not leave an empty super under the bb with no frames as they would be bound to start filling it with wax as soon as the weather got warm enough. Just doesn't seem worth the risk. However I can see the reason for putting it under the floor to provide a wind break but......never had a problem of bees dying of cold if they have food! The food is the most important thing not the weather!
E

 

[kazmcc]

Thanks enrico. I just need things spelling out to me really slowly My concentration is getting worse so thank you for explaining plainly. Got it now

Hope you are feeling better after your incident btw. Have you been forgiven? lol

 

[alanf]

Ok, let me get this straight. You put a super under the bb, with stores? They consume the stores then move on up into the bb during the colder part of winter, leaving the super free to take away come spring but also leaving that super as a nice extra space to protect from draughts while it is in place.

So at what stage do you add this under super?

Like Dishmop said, I thought food was upstairs. Does this not cause problems with space being left in the bb where the brood would have been? Does this not cause them to work harder moving stores up into that space where the brood would recently have been?

I know many people who do this. There are a couple of variants. The starting point in autumn is a national brood box with the brood under a queen excluder under the last shallow super they fill (ivy or sugar syrup say). Before the weather or season changes you remove the queen excluder to avoid the cluster moving away from the queen.

One variant is to leave the nearly full super on top. Then in late winter or early spring you hope to find it empty and the queen and brood still below when you can remove the shallow or put the excluder back. Leave it too late and there's brood in the super. Plus over winter the queen and brood are exposed through the OMF. So a variant is to move the nearly full shallow super under the brood. Stores will be used or moved as needed when the weather permits, the queen is less likely to lay in frames in the lower position and the brood gets less draught from the OMF. If you're dribbling oxalic in late December it's also more likely to be on the cluster just under the crown board. In late winter/early spring, the shallow box should be nearly empty and can be removed or it can go back over the brood box and queen excluder if there is early blackthorn coming in.

Yes, it probably is more moving stores and work for the bees, but on mild days they are active anyway. It's more work for the beekeeper moving boxes and monitoring. It's also probably more vulnerable to mice and very late wasp robbing. Timing, as ever, is dependent on weather; as it was to that point and as forecast. You're looking for all the stores needed being in (ivy finishing) but they're still active. Middle of October maybe when temperatures should be mid teens most days. It probably works better in the South with mild spells. I don't recall any entire week this past winter when I didn't see bees flying at least one day. Insulation slabs over the boxes probably gives a greater margin too. In a longer, colder winter you might be safer with them rising into the stores. In long cold spells the cluster could be high and isolated. Even with stores below, adding fondant above might be a useful precaution.

I tried a couple of side by side trials a couple of winters ago with brood box plus super of stores. Stores over or below didn't make a lot of difference. Some do try to reduce to one National brood box per colony over winter and they do fine. I'm happier with the insurance of stores that pass the winter unused. 14x12 is one way out of it, but for Demarees etc I like the versatility of standard deep National brood boxes. Placing that shallow of winter stores over or below will probably depend more on whether I see a weather window than any hard rules.