Why say NO to doing a course?

[Poly Hive]

Actually beekeeping has not changed all that much over the last 50 years and if a beekeeper was say 85 they would be very knowledgeable indeed esp if an ex or even a practising Bee Farmer and I happen to know one in that postion and belive me there are very very few people in the UK who would not benefit from a wee chat with Hamish.

I include varroa and OSR BTW and of the two I think probably OSR had the bigger impact.

PH

 

[susbees]

The tender point here is "common sense" which in reality is incredibly scarce.

PH

. Why do my bees not want to move up into the super and draw comb and make me some lovely honey (in spite of the fact it's raining and windy and there's a dearth) PH?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It seems you cant even fart these days without a certificate..

I've nothing against courses just the logistics made it impossible for me to attend. My wife who also is eager to keep bees however won't do anything until she gets a course (hopefully next winter if she has the time - there we are work always gets in the way) everyone is different.
I have certificates in radar operating, fire fighting, sea survival, survival craft operating, boat handling an international GMDSS radio operators certificate, food hygiene, firearms handling, steering, seamanship the list goes on and on - met people without these and their skills are better than mine, met others with them and they're clueless! doesn't make me a better seaman either most of these tickets were compulsory but it doesn't make them the be all and end all of everything.
Two years ago I had to be 'accredited' to see if I was a capable customs officer - a job I've been doing for 20 years - got to have a certificate!!
As I said, I've now attended a few practical sessions at the association apiary, met other beginners who said their course was great and I think this was down to the members taking the course (they seem to be a good bunch, they don't push their opinion but try honestly to convey knowledge to us beginners) - i'll take a deep breath now

 

[Brosville]

I've got every sympathy with people who run a mile at some of the courses/brainwashings offered by many local associations - there are many ways of keeping bees other than those propounded by many as being "the only way" , so it is reasonable that if there isn't a "sympathetic" local club, then people may choose to find their own routes - there are excellent courses offered outside the aegis of "mainstream" beekeeping, loads of good books, and a growing body of people who are happy to help and mentor outside any formal structure -it should be remembered that the BBKA only represents a minority of UK Beekeepers, and they do not have a monopoly on "being right" or the only "proper" route into beekeeping.

I find many of the phrases used by those who are tut-tutting about those finding their own way as rather telling - this strange insistence on preventing swarming, and "you will be told about modern disease/pest management" - I swiftly had a bellyfull of the fundamentalist preacher impressions of some of those in my local association "ours is the one and only true faith, you WILL practise drone brood culling, queen marking and clipping, you will religiously tell your bees the forest is on fire every few days prior to ripping their homes apart, you will do all you can to thwart their natural instincts to swarm, and you will dutifully douse them with toxic chemicals once in a while whilst genuflecting towards Bayer HQ, you will tithe your income to aid the pesticides trade body in their work of world domination OR you and your issue will be cast into the outer darkness, yay unto the ninety fifth generation alongside Beelzebub himself, that bloke who advocates top bar hives"

Me? - just got back from giving a talk to a bunch of wannabee beekeepers putting the (more) natural beekeeping viewpoint, alongside a lecturer in "conventional beekeeping" at an "intro to beekeeping day"

 

[huntsman666]

It would be nice if you could make your point without attacking what others have to say.

 

[victor meldrew]

I've got every sympathy with people who run a mile at some of the courses/brainwashings offered by many local associations - there are many ways of keeping bees other than those propounded by many as being "the only way" , so it is reasonable that if there isn't a "sympathetic" local club, then people may choose to find their own routes - there are excellent courses offered outside the aegis of "mainstream" beekeeping, loads of good books, and a growing body of people who are happy to help and mentor outside any formal structure -it should be remembered that the BBKA only represents a minority of UK Beekeepers, and they do not have a monopoly on "being right" or the only "proper" route into beekeeping.

I find many of the phrases used by those who are tut-tutting about those finding their own way as rather telling - this strange insistence on preventing swarming, and "you will be told about modern disease/pest management" - I swiftly had a bellyfull of the fundamentalist preacher impressions of some of those in my local association "ours is the one and only true faith, you WILL practise drone brood culling, queen marking and clipping, you will religiously tell your bees the forest is on fire every few days prior to ripping their homes apart, you will do all you can to thwart their natural instincts to swarm, and you will dutifully douse them with toxic chemicals once in a while whilst genuflecting towards Bayer HQ, you will tithe your income to aid the pesticides trade body in their work of world domination OR you and your issue will be cast into the outer darkness, yay unto the ninety fifth generation alongside Beelzebub himself, that bloke who advocates top bar hives"

Me? - just got back from giving a talk to a bunch of wannabee beekeepers putting the (more) natural beekeeping viewpoint, alongside a lecturer in "conventional beekeeping" at an "intro to beekeeping day"

Put your axe back in the cupboard!
The thread is about 'WHY say NO to doing a course '
Never miss a chance to snipe even when well off target!

John Wilkinson

 

[Brosville]

I've cheerfully laid into people's (to my mind) mistaken ideas, which is what I was under the impression a discussion forum was for - someone's getting a rough ride for daring to choose a "different route" and I've defended robustly their right to do so, and given good reasons why I feel that way.......

 

[victor meldrew]

I've cheerfully laid into people's (to my mind) mistaken ideas, which is what I was under the impression a discussion forum was for - someone's getting a rough ride for daring to choose a "different route" and I've defended robustly their right to do so, and given good reasons why I feel that way.......

Yaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwnnnn !!!
You were recording this on vinyl and still at it on Blueray

John Wilkinson

 

[bigpete]

so far i have said no to a course as they are held one night a week over several months and i work nights. fortunately i seem to have a good mentor

 

[Brosville]

JW - Eyes, planks, motes, pots, kettles - I've got dogs to walk........

 

[region2]

You were recording this on vinyl and still at it on Blueray

Surely a (bees)wax cylinder!

As a new beekeeper I come across his type from time to time - aggressive tree huggers I call them! It's their way or the highway - how dare you eat non-organic food (organic = covered in shZte in my experience!). As to putting bees in a wooden box and using smoke - OMG, you just stole the food from my children's mouths!

R2

 

[victor meldrew]

Surely a (bees)wax cylinder!

As a new beekeeper I come across his type from time to time - aggressive tree huggers I call them! It's their way or the highway - how dare you eat non-organic food (organic = covered in shZte in my experience!). As to putting bees in a wooden box and using smoke - OMG, you just stole the food from my children's mouths!

R2

Old sparring partner R2

JW.

 

[Ely]

If you're into your fourth year of beekeeping I'm pretty sure you don't need to do the basic course. The course I was on more or less just told me 'that's a hive' 'those are bees'...ok maybe it was a little more in depth but barely. If you don't know that after 4 years then I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have got past the first.

I enjoyed my course...did I need it? Who knows....depends what personality type you have, if you look at things with a sensible level intelligent mind I'm pretty sure you can get on with out these basic courses.

A good book is a must though

 

[Davelin]

Gosh region2, you certainly have poked your stick into the proverbial hornet's nest on this one. For what it's worth I'll add my two pennyworth.

I have started beekeeping this season, although as a small boy I was familiar with having bees in the garden.

I did go on a course organised by the local association over the winter and I'm glad that I did. It was reassuring to see that many things had not changed in 50years, but there are obviously new problems to tackle.

I do not intend to follow religiously everything suggested at the course. e.g. it was recommended we get a nuc from the association and keep at their apiary this year. I got mine from a different source and am happily keeping them on my own site (so far so good).

I would have been very apprehensive about starting without doing the course, even though I had read a couple of recommended books, you can't ask a book questions if you don't understand.

I do agree that at times I got the impression that this was the only correct way to do things, and you should follow our advice and ignore other views, but you can listen to this and make your own decisions as I have done.

I also know where I can turn for help if I do encounter unexpected problems.

I wouldn't advise anyone to just get some bees and see how it goes, you would be foolish to do this with any form of animal husbandry.

I think the basic course I went on was very useful for me.

 

[region2]

The BBKA BASIC is a bit more detailed than "I spy with my little eye something beginning with B!" - Syllabus here.

This is the qualification that I believe all beginners should aspire to if they want to confirm their skill and knowledge is at a level where they're competent. With mentoring and experience they should quickly exceed this line in the sand but still have proof that they know the basics.

I'm impressed that our insurers are happy to underwrite total newbies at the same cost that a seasoned beek enjoys. Let's see if claims by all these (us!) beginners forces them to change that stance...

R2

 

[Headnavigator]

I'm glad I did the course as much for the people I met on it as anything else. And yes, at our collective beginners' stage of ignorance it would have been good to have been introduced to other types of hive than National, even though that's what I've chosen to go with. And I've buddied up with a TBH 'tree-hugger' as you put it because we can both learn from each other's different perspectives. What's up with being inclusive about these things? Anyone would think you could get the pox from speaking to a beek with a different hive type.

 

[region2]

I have no problems with tree huggers (hey, I also have a top bar hive and free-range chickens!); it's the agressive, blinkered types that get my goat. They just need to calm down and realise that everyone has an opinion and their's isn't necessarily right.Live and let live I say!

On my BBKA Basic course I have already manipulated a Smiths Hive and handled Langstroph frames and it's only the 3rd evening. I've helped on a WBC and been shown Warre and the timber version of the BeeHaus whose name eludes me.

R2

 

[susbees]

and the timber version of the BeeHaus whose name eludes me.

R2

Dartington ....and they were around a few years before the plastic invention, like 1975...

 

[oliver90owner]

Davelin and Headnavigator sum things up well.

If the courses start with the premise that there are lots of options for everything (eg hive types) and progresses to offer the normal mundane, but effective, route, but with plenty of reference to the alternatives, things may not turn out to be so regimented.

The courses should not simply cover 'the only way to do it' but encompass those who will wish to deviate from the well trodden path, while getting across to all the need for thinking ahead. It is much more important to pass on the 'how to find the solution to a problem' (or 'how to extract yourself from the sh1t without a panic attack'). keeping out of the mire is a good start, though.

Most beginners do not remember simple facts, such as brood cycle timings, from a single lecture, but would remember the approx cycle and where to find the actual numbers when required. The 'underlying bedrock' is what needs to be imprinted indelibly and the students encouraged to study their particular needs in the interim.

For instance an offer of the association apiary being available, not making out it is the best or 'recommended' way to go would be much more acceptable. It leaves the decision up to the student. They have to think about it. They can be encouraged to discuss it.

Explaining why the association nuc might be a good option (disease status, value for money, ease of redress if a real problem arises with the colony, local bred queens, etc) would be far better, then leaving the decision to the sudent (they have to think about it).

I am sure that some do deliver a good learning experience, but as we hear, most loudly, of the less-well received courses, they are obviously out there, even if in the minority.

Davelin, I do like Wedmore as a reference book, as old and dated as it must be.

RAB

 

[viridens]

My involvement with these courses is in the long past. I do remember that most attendees were already bee keepers, and not there to learn before deciding to whether or not to start. I don't know whether this has changed. Although they gave a chance for to build a little basic knowledge and confidence, some of the most useful stuff was gained from 'off syllabus' chats and discussions, and that it didn't take long to 'outgrow' the courses by experience.

Whatever you choose to keep your bees in and whether you choose to blast them with smoke and chemicals or water and essential oils, sooner or later you will run into the same problems, because bees are bees. You only need to look at the posts here to see that queries arise from all types of bee keeping, and all levels of experience. Clearly, courses can't match all these needs.

I think it is usually quicker to ask a question here than trawl through textbooks (many with poor indexes) and websites for an answer. And there is more chance of answers too/discussion of (& around) unexpected problems and those odd 'fringe' queries that make even well experienced bee-botherers scratch their heads, topics that you would be unlikely to cover on any formal course.