Vertical split for swarm control--any success?

[Haughton Honey]

Demaree is swarm prevention . Needs to be done before queen cells appear. Always has been always will.

That is utter utter nonsense.

 

[eltalia]

(edit)
I am not wasting my evening here debating this... Or listening to Bill's nonsense for that matter.

YOU "wasting" your evening...?.. but fine for others to spend their time
in supporting your topic?
Not forgetting the ignorance used in labelling.

Yer one pretty special guy , hey Jeff?... I asked you in post#5 to contribute
in helping me to understand your line of thought, nothing/nada/zilch.
You are the guy with the fail, so just ask yourself how it is I knew
which question to ask - the answer will tellya who knows what, "nonsense' as
it is to you, now.

FWIW... you are partly on the right road as Demarre's hit rate is so poor
never would it be used in a c'mrcl application.

Bill

 

[Haughton Honey]

FWIW... you are partly on the right road as Demarre's hit rate is so poor
never would it be used in a c'mrcl application.

Bill

You’re all as crackpot as each other. I know at least three other bee farmers that use the Demaree method in it’s various forms as standard.

 

[jeff33]

I asked you in post#5 to contribute
in helping me to understand your line of thought, nothing/nada/zilch.
Bill

Bill, the reasoning is simple, you remove the queen from flyers and foragers so they don't swarm and leave a frame of open brood with them so they can raise some QCs and keep them happy.
The top box with the queen has been bled of the vast majority of flyers and foragers and will not attempt to swarm. The bees in there will destroy the QCs.
You remove the bottom brood frame every 7 days so virgin can't emerge and replace with another frame of open brood. Keep bleeding flyers from the top box to the bottom and repeat for several weeks until the fever has gone.

You’re all as crackpot as each other. I know at least three other bee farmers that use the Demaree method in it’s various forms as standard.

Please explain me how to keep the queen with the flyers and having the brood above supers separated with a QX works when swarm cells have already been started?

 

[jeff33]

I also think that we all need to stop making references to methods by name as everyone has their own interpretation and tweaks of each method adding to the confusion.

 

[Beefriendly]

That is utter utter nonsense.

Sorry, but you are utterly wrong in this case and sounding quite rude.
Go read, look up etc then come back and apologise for your rudeness.

 

[Haughton Honey]

Sorry, but you are utterly wrong in this case and sounding quite rude.
Go read, look up etc then come back and apologise for your rudeness.

And I suggest that you’re starting to sound rather supercilious and enjoying the sound of your own voice.

I suggest it’s you that needs to read further on the subject.

 

[B+.]

I have tried this year vertical splits on 2 hives keen to swarm. I have put an empty brood box on the bottom with a frame of open larvae, left supers on, a snelgrove board above but covered the mesh to stop bees sensing the queen above and finally the old brood box with the queen on top with entrance facing the other way around.

After a week I removed the bottom frame with emergency QCs, put a fresh frame of larvae and leave for another week. I also swap entrances on the top to bleed flyers. After 2 weeks I re-unite but I have found that within 2 weeks they are keen to go again.

Do others do this method with success, should I perhaps do a 3rd week separated?

It sounds like this method (https://youtu.be/Wm7RqXJD4_w?t=1440 ).
By removing the frame containing developing queen cells from the bottom box every 7-9 days, you bleed off most of the flying bees.
If you feel that the queen-right box on the top still has too many bees, you could do it again, but, I would have thought most of the bees that remember the original entrance would have moved after 2 weeks
I'm a bit confused whether you're taking the queen and fliers though. In this method, you don't take the queen down

 

[Madge]

I have tried this year vertical splits on 2 hives keen to swarm. I have put an empty brood box on the bottom with a frame of open larvae, left supers on, a snelgrove board above but covered the mesh to stop bees sensing the queen above and finally the old brood box with the queen on top with entrance facing the other way around. ...

Jeff, I think what you’ve done is a Snelgrove II described by Wally Shaw here: http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Swarm-Control-Wally-Shaw.pdf, pp17-21 ...

Nope.. With a .Snelgrove 2 you start with queen plus brood plus queen cells in top box above the Snelgrove board for a few days whilst bleeding off the fliers; you then move the queen down to the bottom brood box. ...

But BF - that's exactly how Jeff described his set-up (or very near). Snelgrove II: Two frames of brood in bottom box to which flyers return; QX; supers; QX; Top box with queen and brood.

Jeff used only one frame of brood at the bottom and a Snelgrove board - I used a QXs instead with an eke and top opening.

Point is, Jeff separated the queen and brood from flying bees - that is basically a Snelgrove II.

 

[Beefriendly]

Point is, Jeff separated the queen and brood from flying bees - that is basically a Snelgrove II.

Indeed, but he didn't move the queen back downstairs....which is one of the essential components of a Snelgrove II

 

[Beefriendly]

And I suggest that you’re starting to sound rather supercilious and enjoying the sound of your own voice.
.

I'm not going to lower myself to childish insults.
Rather just to state that the original Demarre was designed as a method of swarm prevention not a method of swarm control (after queen cells have been started). It's been bastardised and mucked about with with countless aspiring wanna bees calling it their variation. Few perform it as originally described

I'm reproducing the original article below.
Note the subtle clues. It is titled "How to prevent Swarming".
Note references to moving frames of brood, not frames of brood with queen cells.

 

[B+.]

Indeed, but he didn't move the queen back downstairs....which is one of the essential components of a Snelgrove II

If that's the case, this is what he's doing (https://youtu.be/Wm7RqXJD4_w?t=1440 )
The queen stays upstairs with the brood and nurse bees. Only the foragers tend the developing emergency cells (which are disposable) in the bottom box. After 7-9 days, the frame is replaced with another frame of open larvae. This maintains cohesiveness and prevents drifting.
Usually after the second comb change, it's ok to recombine but you can do it as many times as necessary. The point being that you are giving the queen space to come back into lay in the top box (original brood chamber) and temporarily removing the foragers which will clog up the frames with fresh nectar.

 

[Madge]

Indeed, but he didn't move the queen back downstairs....which is one of the essential components of a Snelgrove II

I’ve not read the actual Snelgrove. At what stage does he recommend moving the queen down?

In my earlier post I referred to Wally Shaw’s description and he recommends (as I’ve said) keeping that set-up for the duration of the season, or only reintroduce the queen after the bottom part has reared a new queen.

 

[Beefriendly]

I’ve not read the actual Snelgrove. At what stage does he recommend moving the queen down?
.

After 4 or 5 days. IIRC you check they have first destroyed the queen cells in the top box.
You then get a series of options...the queen has usually laid eggs so top box will start producing queen cell. Which can be destroyed or left.
Or you can introduce new eggs for them to make queen cells from,,,or whatever you wish. Bleed off flyers back into bottom box. It's an elegant system that "usually" works and leaves your workforce intact
I find it strange that Wally suggests leaving the bottom brood box queenless for the season....but then there are so many variations on these simple themes the mind boggles.
Depending on what I wish to achieve, usually reunite after 4-5 weeks, or after I'm sure new queen is laying well in top box which can take longer.

 

[Madge]

... After 7-9 days, the frame is replaced with another frame of open larvae. This maintains cohesiveness and prevents drifting. ...

If I need to do another Vertical AS (Snelgrove II) on another occasion (if I can’t find the queen), I’ll try your suggestion and move open brood down rather than the rolling exchange I’ve described earlier (usually associated with a Demaree).

 

[Murox]

...snip...original Demarre was designed as a method of swarm prevention not a method of swarm control (after queen cells have been started. It's been bastardised and mucked about with and few perform it as originally described.

Often wrongfully described (see Cushman site for a glaring error in understanding).
I'm reproducing the original article below.
Note the subtle clues. It is titled "How to prevent Swarming".
Note references to moving frames of brood, not frames of brood with queen cells.

Thanks for posting that, illuminating piece.

 

[B+.]

If I need to do another Vertical AS (Snelgrove II) on another occasion (if I can’t find the queen), I’ll try your suggestion and move open brood down rather than the rolling exchange I’ve described earlier (usually associated with a Demaree).

One of the beauties of this way is that you don't need to chase the queen around looking for her. You just need to be sure that you have open brood on the frame you put between comb/foundation in the bottom box (and that the queen isn't on the frame. It is so much faster than spending ages looking for a queen (who may be hiding on the side walls so you never find her)

 

[jeff33]

You’re all as crackpot as each other. I know at least three other bee farmers that use the Demaree method in it’s various forms as standard.

Still waiting for an answer to my query on this. There is no point abusing people with your only unhelpful post to this thread if you can't back it up with reasoning... I reckon there are at least 3 bee farmers that are doing pretty poorly in managing their hives if they use demaree as a reactive method!!!

 

[jeff33]

If that's the case, this is what he's doing (https://youtu.be/Wm7RqXJD4_w?t=1440 )
The queen stays upstairs with the brood and nurse bees. Only the foragers tend the developing emergency cells (which are disposable) in the bottom box. After 7-9 days, the frame is replaced with another frame of open larvae. This maintains cohesiveness and prevents drifting.
Usually after the second comb change, it's ok to recombine but you can do it as many times as necessary. The point being that you are giving the queen space to come back into lay in the top box (original brood chamber) and temporarily removing the foragers which will clog up the frames with fresh nectar.

I think this is where I picked up the idea B+. I have just recombined another hive after 2 weeks, will see if it worked this time.

 

[B+.]

I think this is where I picked up the idea B+. I have just recombined another hive after 2 weeks, will see if it worked this time.

I suspect that your Snelgrove board isn't blocking the queens pheromones Jeff. I think you sad something about blocking the opening with a piece of gauze. That won't be enough. It needs to be completely blocked off.