To treat or not for varroa

[yeogi75]

still dont know weather oxalic acid trickle kills mites on the backs of bees, or weather the bees cleaning them selves up ingest the oxalic and kills them that way

 

[itma]

still dont know weather oxalic acid trickle kills mites on the backs of bees, or weather the bees cleaning them selves up ingest the oxalic and kills them that way

AFAIK, its still the subject of research.

Oxalic works. And doesn't work nearly as effectively in plain water as it does in syrup. Why? Good question!

 

[theboynelson]

Itma,
Is that right? If I do the OA method, it is better in syrup than water. I'll have to give it a go when the time comes.

Thanks

 

[itma]

Itma,
Is that right? If I do the OA method, it is better in syrup than water. I'll have to give it a go when the time comes.

Thanks

Yes. Strong suggestion that you start with ready-made ready to use solution. (Such as Trickle2.) Not expensive for hobby hives. But store it in the fridge - even then it has a pretty short shelf life.

 

[Nose Ma]

still dont know weather oxalic acid trickle kills mites on the backs of bees, or weather the bees cleaning them selves up ingest the oxalic and kills them that way

IIRC it damages the mites' "claws" so they grip the bees less effectively, and fall off. I think the late Mr Cushman's site explains it.

 

[yeogi75]

i have asked the chemist at work and he told me how to make and mix oxalic acid,
mineralized water only
oxalic acid
sugar
mix water and oxalic first
then add sugar
something about oxalic will change in sugar ? maybe some one else knows
do not use tap water different reaction with oxalic and sugar ?
now if it affects the mites claws could it be acid affecting the nerves if so can you spray frames of bees instead of trickle in winter

 

[REDWOOD]

Interesting to find out the active chemicals of thymol are and where else they can be found

 

[Lorenz]

I thought thymol was extracted from thyme and mostly came from India?

 

[fincaazul]

still dont know weather oxalic acid trickle kills mites on the backs of bees, or weather the bees cleaning them selves up ingest the oxalic and kills them that way

My understanding is that the OA dissolves the chitin of the varroa mite's jaws. So, no jaws, no feeding. Treated one colony with Apiguard last year, then end of January with Oxalic Acid. After 24 hours had a drop of over 500, after a further fortnight around a further 500. Bees still doing well.

 

[Der Alte Fritz]

There seems to be some confusion about the nature of evolution.

If it were true that the rate of evolution was governed by the number of breed cycles in a given time frame, then the faster breeding species would ALWAYS win and that would mean that smaller species of phylla such as insects would dominate. Or bacteria or viruses. But they dont.

The current state of evolution theory is that Darwinian evolution has been replaced by newer theories such as Punctuated Evolution. This explains how species such as Trilobites can have thousands of years with no seeming change and then come under stress and within a few years achieve huge change. This has nothing to do with the number of breed cycles but relies on the fact that a given geneome carries with it a huge amount of redundant data and when under stress it selects from this bank to solve the problem quickly, within decades. Were a species to rely on genetic mutation as a means of providing genetic variability, it would take far longer to respond since you only typically get a low rate of mutation per generation.

The amount of stress needed to trigger these changes can be quite small. So the honeybee will either respond to the change within a couple of decades or die out. The probability that genetic variability will solve the problem within the timescale is quite low.

If you like to think of Darwin's finches, they did not produce a range of beaks and feeding strategies by genetic variation. They already had a range of beaks in their genome and then add in food scarcity as stress and they solve the problem within a decade from their existing resources.

So go ahead and treat with confidence. So long as your honeybees feel a level of stress, they will respond to it.

Remember also that the varrora mite is not a parasite - it does not aim to kill its host - it is a symbiote - it aims to live with its host sustainably and it too will evolve to achieve that aim. It has no advantage in mass colony death since the young varorra of that colony cannot find another host easily. It achieved this balance with the Asian Honeybee.

 

[oliver90owner]

Remember also that the varrora mite is not a parasite - it does not aim to kill its host - it is a symbiote

Now that is disputable.

Varroa lives on AMM to the detriment of the host. No advantages whatever, as far as I know.

It may lead to the death of the colony, but robbing when the colony is failing will advance the distribution of the mite, so that can be seen as a typical parasite (think liver fluke in sheep, maybe).

We are suggesting dog fleas, etc, are not parasites?

Funny how meanings change over a generation or two. Symbiosis was living together with mutual benefits in my era (nitrogen fixing bactria in legumes per eg).

A bit like electrical cells and batteries - go back to WWII and a battery was definitely a group of similar items (as in anti-aircraft batteries). Now very few (are able to) differentiate between an item and a battery; basically lazy or uneducated - take your pick.

 

[Chris Luck]

So the honeybee will either respond to the change within a couple of decades or die out. The probability that genetic variability will solve the problem within the timescale is quite low.

Except that has already happened in France, in fact a large number of colonies were found to be surviving without treatment right from its arrival here in 1982.

I find it strange that so many people refute the evidence that was scientifically provided by INRA an organisation with no agenda other than it's mandate to provide accurate research. Research it has to be said that often isn't what the Government wants to hear given INRA is a State structure.

Chris

 

[mbc]

I'm quite certain that bees would survive in the long run without treatment, the situation in Britain is more about the beekeepers than the bee.
How many hobbyists are prepared to loose their one/two ..dozen hives, while waiting for the magic to happen ?
How many commercial beekeepers ( already working on tighter margins than their cousins across the channel ) could sustain loosing a good part of their income while waiting for their bees to prosper unaided ?
The situation across the pond seems to be that there are many strains of resistant/hygienic/primorsky/survivor stocks available and yet the commercial beekeepers shun them (for the most part ) to keep the traditional, productive, gentle italians (for the most part) that they have used for generations.

 

[Chris Luck]

I can assure you of one thing the price of honey is much cheaper here in France and taxes / social charges are much higher.

This is not a business or work friendly country like the UK.

I do tend to agree or suspect that the problem is with "the keeper" or the manner in which bees are kept, too much interference, too many foreign substances in and around the colonies could play a part? Perhaps the UK just isn't a good place for bees? Or perhaps things just aren't as bad as we are lead to believe? Here in France everything is fine as far as I'm concerned but it should be noted that most of the other Brit keepers on her treat and play with their bees.

Chris

 

[user 6228]

We had two colonies going into winter, surprisingly both survived, although one was Q- in spring. One colony had a truly formidable mite drop going into winter before during and after treatment. we are talking hundreds of mites.
Yet it survived and then in spring really thrived...

One datum ... just like citing a a heavy smoker who lives into their nineties...

Unless the experiments are done on large enough numbers, with controls and scientific rigour, the arguments are pointless.

 

[alanf]

Remember also that the varrora mite is not a parasite - it does not aim to kill its host - it is a symbiote - it aims to live with its host sustainably and it too will evolve to achieve that aim. It has no advantage in mass colony death since the young varorra of that colony cannot find another host easily. It achieved this balance with the Asian Honeybee.

They form a balance, yes, any organism which destroys the host completely is on a parallel route to extinction.

But that's not related to the terminology. Symbiosis implies both parties derive a benefit from the association, typical example is the nitrogen fixing bacteria in legume root nodules. Commensal is the term when one party benefits and the other appears to be largely unaffected, epiphytic plants like ferns on forest trees for instance. It's a parasite if one party benefits and the other is disadvantaged and I don't think there's an argument that the bees are not harmed by hosting varroa.

 

[Jeff Buzz]

I spoke to a rat catcher recently he had been asked to remove all traps and poison from a large house as the owner hadn't seen any rats for a long time and he could see the point of paying the pest control man any more.

Pest controller pointed out the reason the house owner hadn't seen any rats is because he had been controlling them and in six months time the place would once again be over run with them.

So even if I cannot see lots of varroa in my hives I will still treat them with thymol and oxilic and use these opportunities to carry out pest management.

Until we fine a way of getting rid of them for good. I don't think that letting my bees swarm and not checking them or forgetting were my hive are is a responsible way of looking after my bees

 

[FreeFall]

...if so can you spray frames of bees instead of trickle in winter

You could but it would involve taking the frames out and breaking up the cluster - something which I wouldn't want to do.

 

[yeogi75]

spray diluted amounts on a regular time scale, after honey removal before cold weather sets in, and leave bees nice and snug for winter,oxalic acid rate 2% or 2.5% or 3% what ever you use dilute to maybe 0.5 on 4/5/6 occasions

 

[Chris Luck]

I don't think that letting my bees swarm and not checking them or forgetting were my hive are is a responsible way of looking after my bees

That's your point of view and that's how it should be, however it works here in France and I suspect it's working in the UK, certainly with feral colonies at any rate.

Mercifully we aren't all the same and are still free to choose how to keep our insects and long may that continue, what we don't want is one group of people imposing their point of view on everyone else because that would be dictatorship. Anyway, I don't actually forget where they are, I just forget about them until I remember them.

Chris