Thermodynamics question

[user 20297]

Who am I to argue? My only question would be how long does the polyurethane board retain the heat once warmed compared to a foot thick stone wall.....that was my point!

The best setup would be the PIR board fitted on the outside of the walls to retain that stored heat and extend the time during which it can be radiated back at the occupants.. Obviously a side benefit of that arrangement is that it will would also vastly improve the appearance of any stone-built dwelling

 

[Sutty]

The best setup would be the PIR board fitted on the outside of the walls to retain that stored heat and extend the time during which it can be radiated back at the occupants.. Obviously a side benefit of that arrangement is that it will would also vastly improve the appearance of any stone-built dwelling

I think Heritage England might have something to say about that for me!

 

[user 20297]

I think Heritage England might have something to say about that for me!

You could put stone cladding on afterwards.

 

[user 6228]

"that every gW produce by renewables is a gW that doesn't have to be produced by fossil fuels. ..." thats not strictly true because you have to over provision on renewables to allow for the varablity of weather. And given weather systems can be the size of continents, there are problems dispersing the generation to cope with this. Of the renewables, tidal would be better since it has much better time/ dispersal for the UK but very little tidal power is produced yet.

 

[JamezF]

The best setup would be the PIR board fitted on the outside of the walls to retain that stored heat and extend the time during which it can be radiated back at the occupants.. Obviously a side benefit of that arrangement is that it will would also vastly improve the appearance of any stone-built dwelling

In our case, you're probably not wrong to be fair. Many of the older buildings around here (including our house, parts of which are allegedly at least 400 years old) were built from what was dug out of the ground in the immediate locality. Here that's soft, porous shale. Parts of one of our barns are built with such thin pieces that there's more lime mortar than there is stone. Generally walls built that way appear to have been rendered with lime mortar, but despite good evidence for that being the case the planning department of our local council refused to allow us to re-render the barn in question when we applied to convert it to a holiday cottage.

Unfortunately external insulation on our own house just isn't a realistic option for us. The house was originally thatched with the upper storey windows sticking up "dormer-style" into the thatch with a thin wooden lintel over the top of the opening and no wall above. The roof has since been changed to tiles, but the roof line was kept, meaning there's almost no overhang (otherwise the windows wouldn't open). In fact there's barely room to fit guttering. To ensure the insulation was covered by the tiles we'd need to change the roof line to lift it and extend it beyond the walls to create a soffit. But that would require more tiles and the style used just isn't available any more. The closest match we could find doesn't even fit close to properly. What sounds a relatively simple idea at first turns into a complete nightmare to actually achieve.

Internal insulation is equally impractical for many of the same reasons as Dani. It would quite possibly require new windows, moving of doorways, a near total rewire and modifications to the plumbing, particularly in the bathrooms. It would probably be easier to gut the building back to the shell and start again.

James

 

[user 20297]

In our case, you're probably not wrong to be fair. Many of the older buildings around here (including our house, parts of which are allegedly at least 400 years old) were built from what was dug out of the ground in the immediate locality. Here that's soft, porous shale. Parts of one of our barns are built with such thin pieces that there's more lime mortar than there is stone. Generally walls built that way appear to have been rendered with lime mortar, but despite good evidence for that being the case the planning department of our local council refused to allow us to re-render the barn in question when we applied to convert it to a holiday cottage.

Unfortunately external insulation on our own house just isn't a realistic option for us. The house was originally thatched with the upper storey windows sticking up "dormer-style" into the thatch with a thin wooden lintel over the top of the opening and no wall above. The roof has since been changed to tiles, but the roof line was kept, meaning there's almost no overhang (otherwise the windows wouldn't open). In fact there's barely room to fit guttering. To ensure the insulation was covered by the tiles we'd need to change the roof line to lift it and extend it beyond the walls to create a soffit. But that would require more tiles and the style used just isn't available any more. The closest match we could find doesn't even fit close to properly. What sounds a relatively simple idea at first turns into a complete nightmare to actually achieve.

Internal insulation is equally impractical for many of the same reasons as Dani. It would quite possibly require new windows, moving of doorways, a near total rewire and modifications to the plumbing, particularly in the bathrooms. It would probably be easier to gut the building back to the shell and start again.

James

I'm not serious about encasing lovely old houses in insulation, but it's great idea for some masonry-built properties, particularly those built of in-situ cast concrete or with solid brick walls. Rendered walls can be neatly re-rendered afterwards and hardly look any different.

But apart from the aesthetics, most types of stone walled houses built with non-cementious mortar ould need to be very carefully assessed bfore being externally insulated. Amongst other things, there is a danger of encasing moisture and potentially weakening the structure.

 

[Beesnaturally]

On the plus side it means if you can add internal insulation you don't need much to double the insulation properties!

Why wouldn't you be able to?

 

[Beesnaturally]

"that every gW produce by renewables is a gW that doesn't have to be produced by fossil fuels. ..." thats not strictly true because you have to over provision on renewables to allow for the varablity of weather.

All energy generation is over-provisioned. (We hope) There are always power station on standby, because demand is so variable and good quality supply must be maintained. Managing demand has been done since day one.

And given weather systems can be the size of continents, there are problems dispersing the generation to cope with this. Of the renewables, tidal would be better since it has much better time/ dispersal for the UK but very little tidal power is produced yet.

Seems harder to get it going. I don't know why. I don't think dispersal is often a problem. When it is we have standby systems.

The more integrated and varied power generation becomes, the more intelligently it is managed (variable pricing will work wonders) the less most of these difficulties will present. Then we'll be able to save money by thinning the standby generators. We're bound to catch a cold once or twice in the learning process. We'll learn from that, and there will be some inconvenience but few casualties.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I'm not serious about encasing lovely old houses in insulation, but it's great idea for some masonry-built properties, particularly those built of in-situ cast concrete or with solid brick walls. Rendered walls can be neatly re-rendered afterwards and hardly look any different.

But apart from the aesthetics, most types of stone walled houses built with non-cementious mortar ould need to be very carefully assessed bfore being externally insulated. Amongst other things, there is a danger of encasing moisture and potentially weakening the structure.

If I were doing it I'd have a force-ventilated cavity between wall and internal lining. The masonry would remain dry. You could even divert the ventilated air indoors when convenient.

I'd like to see a study of inside vs outside insulation in terms of efficiency and comfort, for a range of different use patterns. While it seems like a good plan to have a mass on the warmed side, my celotex room has taught me there are lots of advantages to not having it.

What works best I think is a celotex room (inside insulation) with a large mass in a celotext copbord inside, or adjoining it. Then you can have the mass just when you want it.

 

[enrico]

If I were doing it I'd have a force-ventilated cavity between wall and internal lining. The masonry would remain dry. You could even divert the ventilated air indoors when convenient.

I'd like to see a study of inside vs outside insulation in terms of efficiency and comfort, for a range of different use patterns. While it seems like a good plan to have a mass on the warmed side, my celotex room has taught me there are lots of advantages to not having it.

What works best I think is a celotex room (inside insulation) with a large mass in a celotext copbord inside, or adjoining it. Then you can have the mass just when you want it.

A bit like a poly beehive

 

[Gilberdyke John]

In our case, you're probably not wrong to be fair. Many of the older buildings around here (including our house, parts of which are allegedly at least 400 years old) were built from what was dug out of the ground in the immediate locality. Here that's soft, porous shale. Parts of one of our barns are built with such thin pieces that there's more lime mortar than there is stone. Generally walls built that way appear to have been rendered with lime mortar, but despite good evidence for that being the case the planning department of our local council refused to allow us to re-render the barn in question when we applied to convert it to a holiday cottage.

Modern planners have become the spawn of Satan. With their input and restrictions it's unlikely any of the various medieval castles and folly's would ever have been allowed. "You want to build a castle in Conway? Not a chance, it'll not be in keeping with the surroundings"

 

[Beesnaturally]

A bit like a poly beehive

Is it?
Even if it is; what is good for human comfort isn't necessarily good for a free mating wild population.

The more you mollycoddle, the more you undercut the winnowing of the weak, the more you damage the population.

But that is my hobbyhorse which strictly must be kept confined to my personal blog. It doesn't belong here; no Sir!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

But that is my hobbyhorse which strictly must be kept confined to my personal blog. It doesn't belong here; no Sir!

it doesn't belong anywhere - not in a civilised society anyway

 

[Erichalfbee]

The more you mollycoddle, the more you undercut the winnowing of the weak, the more you damage the population.

I’m just grateful that doesn’t apply to people

 

[Erichalfbee]

But that is my hobbyhorse which strictly must be kept confined to my personal blog. It doesn't belong here; no Sir!

Struth!
What am I going to do with you?!

 

[Beesnaturally]

I’m just grateful that doesn’t apply to people

I thought you didn't want to talk about it?

 

[user 20297]

If I were doing it I'd have a force-ventilated cavity between wall and internal lining. The masonry would remain dry. You could even divert the ventilated air indoors when convenient.

I'd like to see a study of inside vs outside insulation in terms of efficiency and comfort, for a range of different use patterns. While it seems like a good plan to have a mass on the warmed side, my celotex room has taught me there are lots of advantages to not having it.

What works best I think is a celotex room (inside insulation) with a large mass in a celotext copbord inside, or adjoining it. Then you can have the mass just when you want it.

What would be the gain in having external insulation if you then allow ambient temperature air into a gap between the inside of the insulated layer and the outside of the wall ?
External insulation is often a better retrofit to a property as it is usually a lot easier to avoid cold-bridging and air-gaps. But internal insulation, especially when continuous under a floor surface, avoids heat being conducted downwards into the ground.

 

[Beesnaturally]

What would be the gain in having external insulation if you then allow ambient temperature air into a gap between the inside of the insulated layer and the outside of the wall ?
External insulation is often a better retrofit to a property as it is usually a lot easier to avoid cold-bridging and air-gaps. But internal insulation, especially when continuous under a floor surface, avoids heat being conducted downwards into the ground.

" cavity between wall and -internal- lining." Beebe

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I’m just grateful that doesn’t apply to people

Hmm I'd be happy with a few exceptions

 

[Ian123]

Hmm I'd be happy with a few exceptions

Anyone who was not born in Wales?