Thermodynamics question

[Beesnaturally]

There are loads of misuses and abuses in the field of energy conservation, and it's mainly making rich people richer at the expense of the average person. In the name of reducing the national output of carbon dioxide we all pay levies on our fuel bills to subsidise the schemes and technologies that most of us neither have access to nor can benefit from.

Your children, and their children, the whole global ecosystems, and billions of people round the world are benefitting. When the county is running on cheap energy we'll all benefitting.

One of the most powerful ways of making changes quickly is to give incentives to wealthy people to invest in making them. It may look ugly, but it gets the job done. Yes, the middle classes can afford beneficial things that the working classes can't. that why we encourage upward mobility, the idea at the heart of free education, the welfare state, and hundreds of government policies from all sides. Everyone benefits when people are moving upward, not least the (our) taxman.

 

[madasafish]

It will not be possible - with current plans - to convert all houses from gas powered to Heat pump heating.
WHY?
Because for each 4KWH of gas saved, 1 KWH of electricity is needed to run the heat pumps. APPROX.
"Ofgem estimates the typical household in Britain uses 2,900 kWh of electricity and 12,000 kWh of gas in a year."
So converting the 12,000KWH gas to heat pumps will require an extra 3,000KHW of electricity: or basically doubling demand per household.
Add in the same equation when replacing IC engined cars with EVs and domestic electricity consumption will as a minimum double or treble.
We have no plans to build EXTRA electricity generation to cater for this. Remember the bulk of teh extra consumption will be home heating run 24/7 for Heat pumps. We need 100% reliable electricity supplies 24/7( not wind/solar).

No plans to do it (new nukes replace old ones closing)

It is all going to be catastrophic failure... and IT IS ALL the fault of the Current Government

 

[user 20297]

Your children, and their children, the whole global ecosystems, and billions of people round the world are benefitting. When the county is running on cheap energy we'll all benefitting.

One of the most powerful ways of making changes quickly is to give incentives to wealthy people to invest in making them. It may look ugly, but it gets the job done. Yes, the middle classes can afford beneficial things that the working classes can't. that why we encourage upward mobility, the idea at the heart of free education, the welfare state, and hundreds of government policies from all sides. Everyone benefits when people are moving upward, not least the (our) taxman.

The best I can do is to assume (and hope) that you are joking!

 

[Sutty]

I am awaiting for the Government's long promised bonfire of EU regulations to provide an endless supply of red tape that I can burn for warmth.
I have ben holding my breath for it for three years.

This is one place where the UK government will be very effective at recycling - they will recycle all the EU red tape into UK red tape.

I have to take issue with some of the statements re wood burners: as long as you are burning properly dried wood the most recent models (designed to meet the recent regulation changes) can be used in all areas of the UK including smokeless zones, and actually produce several times less than the "permitted" particulates.

I live in a very old grade 2 listed property & consider myself as much guardian as owner. Solid stone walls, no cavity, internal or external wall insulation not appropriate. After filling in loads of (mainly inappropriate) forms and paying the accompanying fees we have recently got planning & listed building consent to install double glazing. The specialized units are going to be expensive! There is no way we could sensibly heat the place even then with a heat pump currently unless it was huge & could produce higher flow temperatures.

 

[Erichalfbee]

This is one place where the UK government will be very effective at recycling - they will recycle all the EU red tape into UK red tape.

I have to take issue with some of the statements re wood burners: as long as you are burning properly dried wood the most recent models (designed to meet the recent regulation changes) can be used in all areas of the UK including smokeless zones, and actually produce several times less than the "permitted" particulates.

I live in a very old grade 2 listed property & consider myself as much guardian as owner. Solid stone walls, no cavity, internal or external wall insulation not appropriate. After filling in loads of (mainly inappropriate) forms and paying the accompanying fees we have recently got planning & listed building consent to install double glazing. The specialized units are going to be expensive! There is no way we could sensibly heat the place even then with a heat pump currently unless it was huge & could produce higher flow temperatures.

I am in a similar situation, though not listed. Solid stone walls 2 feet thick, no way can we add insulation inside or out. Coal Rayburn runs underfloor heating downstairs. Convectors upstairs, though heat sink radiator in the bathroom provides lots of warmth. Wood burner for cooler summer evenings. At least we have double glazing. It wound be cheaper to demolish the house and build a new one.

 

[JamezF]

I am in a similar situation, though not listed. Solid stone walls 2 feet thick, no way can we add insulation inside or out.

Ditto. Our central heating is oil-fired, though the thermostat is set to only 18°C, largely to keep the structure dry. Other than that we rely on woodburners that run on timber I've cut and dried myself. In the summer we only have heating for hot water though. The central heating probably doesn't come on for more than six months of the year.

James

 

[Sutty]

We had a new gas combi boiler installed about 4yrs ago. We went for a system that links to electronic radiator valves so that you can control the temperature in each room by time over the week. As well as the boiler being supposedly more efficient this means you can  not heat the rooms that don't need it at that time.
My only real complaints with it are 1 I'd like hotter tap water in winter - when inlet temp is low it struggles to provide a really hot shower unless I reduce the flow a bit (not a big problem), and 2 it is unable to accept incoming water over 25C (just wondering about solar pre-heating, though the panels would have to not be on the house roof as listed).
The ability to reduce heating where/when it's not needed is the real bonus.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The best I can do is to assume (and hope) that you are joking!

The simpleton's belief in 'trickle down' economics?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I am in a similar situation, though not listed. Solid stone walls 2 feet thick, no way can we add insulation inside or out.

ditto

 

[Gilberdyke John]

We live in a mid-1400s thatched timber framed cottage. 8-10 years ago we were approached by a very pushy salesman who tried to persuade us to change from our oil-fired boiler to an ASHP. Reading most of the comments above I'm glad we didn't go ahead.
I do have a worry: is it correct that after 2025 we won't be allowed to replace the oil boiler if it fails?

If your oil boiler is ageing it might be worth buying the replacement now if you have dry storage for it. When it does come time to swap its a simple plumbing job although you wil have to sort out a condensate drain route. Bear in mind radiator sizing may need attention although it's not unheard of for the original sizes to have been overspecced and some may be just adequate.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

It will not be possible - with current plans - to convert all houses from gas powered to Heat pump heating.
WHY?
Because for each 4KWH of gas saved, 1 KWH of electricity is needed to run the heat pumps. APPROX.
"Ofgem estimates the typical household in Britain uses 2,900 kWh of electricity and 12,000 kWh of gas in a year."
So converting the 12,000KWH gas to heat pumps will require an extra 3,000KHW of electricity: or basically doubling demand per household.
Add in the same equation when replacing IC engined cars with EVs and domestic electricity consumption will as a minimum double or treble.
We have no plans to build EXTRA electricity generation to cater for this. Remember the bulk of teh extra consumption will be home heating run 24/7 for Heat pumps. We need 100% reliable electricity supplies 24/7( not wind/solar).

No plans to do it (new nukes replace old ones closing)

It is all going to be catastrophic failure... and IT IS ALL the fault of the Current Government

Partly but the idiot Moribund introduced the Climate Control Act that kicked off the farce.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

It will not be possible - with current plans - to convert all houses from gas powered to Heat pump heating.
WHY?
Because for each 4KWH of gas saved, 1 KWH of electricity is needed to run the heat pumps. APPROX.
"Ofgem estimates the typical household in Britain uses 2,900 kWh of electricity and 12,000 kWh of gas in a year."
So converting the 12,000KWH gas to heat pumps will require an extra 3,000KHW of electricity: or basically doubling demand per household.
Add in the same equation when replacing IC engined cars with EVs and domestic electricity consumption will as a minimum double or treble.
We have no plans to build EXTRA electricity generation to cater for this. Remember the bulk of teh extra consumption will be home heating run 24/7 for Heat pumps. We need 100% reliable electricity supplies 24/7( not wind/solar).

No plans to do it (new nukes replace old ones closing)

It is all going to be catastrophic failure... and IT IS ALL the fault of the Current Government

I like the APPROX - the conversion efficiency in winter is nowhere near 4 to 1

 

[robinharman]

There is going to be a massive reduction in the availability of properties to rent. From 2025 all new tenancies, and from 2028 all rented properties must have an EPC of A,B or C. Landlords are leaving the market in droves as their properties cannot be upgraded for sensible money. This means one thing ..higher rents.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

There is going to be a massive reduction in the availability of properties to rent. From 2025 all new tenancies, and from 2028 all rented properties must have an EPC of A,B or C. Landlords are leaving the market in droves as their properties cannot be upgraded for sensible money. This means one thing ..higher rents.

Can anyone forsee a rise in dodgy inspectors?

 

[Gilberdyke John]

ditto

A local village hall had been constructed with single skin walls. On the basis some insulation is better than none the inside was lined using 1" kingspan and plasterboard. It immediately showed significant improvement in comfort and lower gas bills without noticeably losing usable space.

 

[Erichalfbee]

A local village hall had been constructed with single skin walls. On the basis some insulation is better than none the inside was lined using 1" kingspan and plasterboard. It immediately showed significant improvement in comfort and lower gas bills without noticeably losing usable space.

If my walls and ceilings were straight, if window sills weren't odd sizes, if there weren't beams all over the place and the kitchen wall wasn't cob that might be an option...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Can anyone forsee a rise in dodgy inspectors?

or an end to the 'buy to let scam where banks won't give people wanting to enter the property market a mortgage even though they've been paying their landlords' for years thus more properties coming on to the sales market causing an end to silly house prices therefore affordable housing once again

 

[enrico]

Time for me to say something!
I have lived in many old houses. They have been heated with gas, oil, totally woodburners and now the present one has an ASHP.
I can say that my present house is the most consistently warmest and most comfortable we have lived in. It was built in 1850 and has single skin walls. When we moved in it had an old oil boiler and an illegal oil tank so we had to spend money on getting it replaced. I did my homework and sought advice. I had three heat surveys and quotes done and soon realised there were cowboys out there. We finally settled on a company we could trust and had all the radiators replaced with larger ones. Insulated everything that needed insulating, had a proper sized ashp installed and have never looked back. That was six years ago. We also had PV panels installed at the same time which have supplemented the costs and last year had batteries which have also helped no end.
You have to do your research and get the right company. It is not cheap. I was lucky to be able to claim RHI which has paid ALL my electric costs for the whole house for six years but that aside the ASHP is not expensive to run. I have made sure that I am running it in the correct way (Weather compensation mode) that lowers or highers the temperature depending on outside temperatures. I have made sure I am on the most economical tariff when it comes to electricity. I have made sure I know how the system works best for my situation and am more than happy with the costs and the way it runs. I would never choose any other form of heating. No worries about carbon monoxide or filling tanks with gas or oil. You can produce your own electricity if you can afford the outlay. I long decided that although new technologies are expensive to put in, they help sell your house when you move and in our case have always added value.
You have to do your homework. You have to be prepared to spend money on insulation and on proper size radiators, you have to have confidence in the installer and you have to put some effort into running it properly. It is a big investment so get it right.
If you do all that you will live in a warm comfortable house for a reasonable cost. It is a different mindset to normal heating so be prepared to learn new stuff.
I am very happy to answer any questions on any of the technology or items raised if anyone wants to PM me.

 

[Beesnaturally]

The best I can do is to assume (and hope) that you are joking!

Why? About what?

It will not be possible - with current plans - to convert all houses from gas powered to Heat pump heating.
WHY?
Because for each 4KWH of gas saved, 1 KWH of electricity is needed to run the heat pumps. APPROX.
"Ofgem estimates the typical household in Britain uses 2,900 kWh of electricity and 12,000 kWh of gas in a year."
So converting the 12,000KWH gas to heat pumps will require an extra 3,000KHW of electricity: or basically doubling demand per household.
Add in the same equation when replacing IC engined cars with EVs and domestic electricity consumption will as a minimum double or treble.
We have no plans to build EXTRA electricity generation to cater for this. Remember the bulk of teh extra consumption will be home heating run 24/7 for Heat pumps. We need 100% reliable electricity supplies 24/7( not wind/solar).

No plans to do it (new nukes replace old ones closing)

It is all going to be catastrophic failure... and IT IS ALL the fault of the Current Government

Do you think the bods in charge of upgrading the national grid, the folks who have announced 6 new large nuclear power stations, the investment community et al.. have all forgotten to model future demand?

Yes, decarbonising the energy supply requires a huge increase in renewable generation. Its a huge task. It will involve lowering demand in buildings. And it will involve home generation and intelligent metering. All this stuff has been studied and planned at the highest level, and in the investment communities, for decades. By people who are good at sums.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I am in a similar situation, though not listed. Solid stone walls 2 feet thick, no way can we add insulation inside or out. Coal Rayburn runs underfloor heating downstairs. Convectors upstairs, though heat sink radiator in the bathroom provides lots of warmth. Wood burner for cooler summer evenings. At least we have double glazing. It wound be cheaper to demolish the house and build a new one.

You can add insulation board internally to create what is effectively a new box. I would make arrangements for the inside of the stone walling to air.

You lose a few inches of roomspace. But you get a climate controlled living space that will cost pennies to heat.