Temperatures for apiguard?

[ellypatt]

This is probably a silly question, but...

Apiguard says the temperature has to be over 15C when it is administered, but if it's right inside the hive on top of the brood frames won't the temperature be considerably higher than this anyway?

 

[greengumbo]

I have been thinking about this as well.
Surely the brood nest is about 30'C anyway so the top of the frames in the brood box shouldnt be that much lower ?

 

[Finman]

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15 C means outdoor day temp. It affects on thymol zasification inside too.



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[user 6228]

How i've heard it is that at lower outside temperatures, the inside activity of the bees is reduced... too busy clustering trying to keep warm rather than moving about and getting the stuff on them.
How that translates to a hive that is always warm enough for them not to cluster I dont know....

 

[drstitson]

15c + outside.

however, practically in UK, has to be started asap after removing supers.

 

[ellypatt]

Thanks, hadn't considered the clustering aspect of it. Supers just off (what there was of them) and forecast pretty good so it's going on today

 

[alanf]

To quote the Thymovar leaflet:

Best efficacy is achieved when maximum daytime temperatures are between 20 °C and 25 °C throughout treatment. Reduced product efficacy occurs if average temperatures fall below 15 °C during the treatment

Note that it's the "maximum daytime temperature" that you're interested in, which some other products leave out. You can check the long term monthly averages for your nearest weather station but remember that a monthly average of 15 °C means around half the days are below that.

 

[Finman]

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Wen we treat hives with thymol, we do not have 20-25C day temp. And not average 15C.

"best efficacy" .....we do not have such, it seems.

However it means that you cannot thymol or formic acid later when hives are broodless.
Then only oxalic acid works in low temps.

 

[oliver90owner]

average of 15 °C means around half the days are below that.

Not necessarily so. A few very cold days can skew the distribution and alter the mean.

 

[For want of a better word]

average of 15 °C means around half the days are below that.

Not necessarily so. A few very cold days can skew the distribution and alter the mean.

Mean deviation?.... or is it standard deviations ?

Do not forget to add that 9mm eke under the crownboard or the bees will not be able to get into the container !

 

[PBee]

[Do not forget to add that 9mm eke under the crownboard or the bees will not be able to get into the container ![/QUOTE]

A recent study suggests that a slightly larger overhead space increases effectiveness. The three spaces tested were 0.65cm, 2.85cm and 6.65cm with the relative effectiveness for each of 78.3%, 87.6% and 92.4% respectively. Journal of Apicultural Research Vol. 47 (2) pp 113 - 117 as reported in The Irish Beekeeper September edition.

 

[alanf]

A recent study suggests that a slightly larger overhead space increases effectiveness. The three spaces tested were 0.65cm, 2.85cm and 6.65cm with the relative effectiveness for each of 78.3%, 87.6% and 92.4% respectively. Journal of Apicultural Research Vol. 47 (2) pp 113 - 117 as reported in The Irish Beekeeper September edition.

Was that with Apiguard only? The usual emphasis is that the bees have access to the top of the tray or card but the Apiguard FAQ actually says an eke or "preferably an empty super". It adds nothing to support that statement, but the optimum might well be greater than the 6.65cm in the research.

http://www.vita-europe.com/wp-content/uploads/VitaApiguardFAQ201208.pdf

Another intriguing addition caught my eye in the latest version of the FAQ about the use of open floors:

22. Q: Can I use Apiguard with open mesh floors?
A: Thymol vapours are heavier than air and with an open floor it would be expected that much of the value of the treatment may be lost. However, there is no clear evidence if this in fact happens. We advise to close up open mesh floors during the Apiguard treatment and open them again afterwards, but this is a matter of choice.

The line about it being a matter of choice was there before, the addition is that there is no clear evidence for the treatment being less effective if the floor is left open. That might link with their video showing the apiguard being used with uncovered holes in a crown board. Their position appears to be shifting to the idea that closing down the hive ventilation makes very little difference.

 

[itma]

...
A recent study suggests that a slightly larger overhead space increases effectiveness. The three spaces tested were 0.65cm, 2.85cm and 6.65cm with the relative effectiveness for each of 78.3%, 87.6% and 92.4% respectively. Journal of Apicultural Research Vol. 47 (2) pp 113 - 117 as reported in The Irish Beekeeper September edition.

Does it say where the study was undertaken?
And what temperatures were encountered?

I have a suspicion that at higher temperatures, greater headroom (thus volume for vapour) may be beneficial in moderating changes in vapour concentration. If its so strong as to drive the bees outside, it can't be acting on those bees while they are outside ...

 

[Finman]

Was that with Apiguard only? The usual emphasis is that the bees have access to the top of the tray or card but the Apiguard FAQ actually says an eke or "preferably an empty super". It adds nothing to support that statement, but the optimum might well be greater than the 6.65cm in the research.

http://www.vita-europe.com/wp-content/uploads/VitaApiguardFAQ201208.pdf

Another intriguing addition caught my eye in the latest version of the FAQ about the use of open floors:



The line about it being a matter of choice was there before, the addition is that there is no clear evidence for the treatment being less effective if the floor is left open. That might link with their video showing the apiguard being used with uncovered holes in a crown board. Their position appears to be shifting to the idea that closing down the hive ventilation makes very little difference.

GOOH HEAVENS GUYS!
Europen varro group made practical tests about varroa treament and they left they solutions about 2004-2006. Results have verifiend in many countries.

FAO or BKA have NOTHING TO DO WITH THESE RESULTS. None of them have doe these rereaches.



It is very clear that when thymol or formic acid gasifies in the hive, the best place is then the back and upstairs. It is longest distance to entrance when bees try to ventilate odor off.
It is too the hot place to make gasifigation.


What sense makes if you put stuff to the door or near entrance? How it helps spread the gass around hive.

Oxalic syrup is meant to spread with physical contact.

These advices are meant to normal persons. You need not to know much. You just follow advices and you will succeed.

But good heavens! Why you should make your own desicions when professinal guys have done practical tests nearly 10 years.

 

[mbc]

GOOH HEAVENS GUYS!
Europen varro group made practical tests about varroa treament and they left they solutions about 2004-2006. Results have verifiend in many countries.

FAO or BKA have NOTHING TO DO WITH THESE RESULTS. None of them have doe these rereaches.



It is very clear that when thymol or formic acid gasifies in the hive, the best place is then the back and upstairs. It is longest distance to entrance when bees try to ventilate odor off.
It is too the hot place to make gasifigation.


What sense makes if you put stuff to the door or near entrance? How it helps spread the gass around hive.

Oxalic syrup is meant to spread with physical contact.

These advices are meant to normal persons. You need not to know much. You just follow advices and you will succeed.

But good heavens! Why you should make your own desicions when professinal guys have done practical tests nearly 10 years.

FYI (for your information), FAQ is the frequently asked questions and answers information provided by VITA, the manufacturers of apiguard, who have tested their product on thousands of colonies under many circumstances, why would that information be any less valuable than that to which you (Finman) refer ?

 

[PBee]

Was that with Apiguard only? The usual emphasis is that the bees have access to the top of the tray or card but the Apiguard FAQ actually says an eke or "preferably an empty super". It adds nothing to support that statement, but the optimum might well be greater than the 6.65cm in the research.

It was with Apiguard only and 6.65cm was the maximum space tested. I wondered why they didn't include one much bigger space as a control or to try and find an upper efficacy limit.

Does it say where the study was undertaken?
And what temperatures were encountered?

I have a suspicion that at higher temperatures, greater headroom (thus volume for vapour) may be beneficial in moderating changes in vapour concentration. If its so strong as to drive the bees outside, it can't be acting on those bees while they are outside ...

The experiment was carried out in the Emilia-Romagna region in Northern Italy and the authors only refer to temperatures during the test period being 'within the range recommended by the manufacturers' and that during the second period there were night time mimimum temperatures of 7 deg C but with mean temperatures for the period still above 20 deg C.
Regarding bearding as a factor, the only reference is that 'no side effects were observed during the experiment other than a greater exit of bees from some of the hives in the hours immediately following administration of the product'.
I assume that if there was significant bearding behaviour between the test groups they would have factored this into their conclusions.
The question is whether at the lower ambient temperatures of our latitudes the overhead space is still critical. I just invert Ashforth type feeders instead of using an eke.

 

[Finman]

The question is whether at the lower ambient temperatures of our latitudes the overhead space is still critical. I just invert Ashforth type feeders instead of using an eke.

our mite poisoning is just going on. Our temps change much. Night are now about 5C and day 13-15C.

Our researcher was in European varroa group , Seppo Korpela.

We are not worried about temprature.it is what it is. Things are not ideal.
The presence of brood affects more to efficacy.

My hives ought be now broodless today I had 4-6 brood frames in 4 hives what I opened.

Honey Paw sells thymol strips. its place is on top bars during feeding.
The seller says that efficacy is about 70%. As said, it depends much on brood.

What ever you do in these thing, you are lucky or less lucky. Stuff affects in varied way in hives.

 

[Finman]

FYI (for your information), FAQ is the frequently asked questions and answers information provided by VITA, the manufacturers of apiguard, who have tested their product on thousands of colonies under many circumstances, why would that information be any less valuable than that to which you (Finman) refer ?

yes but I know that manufactures texts are not allways honest. Yes I know. I have seen them so much.

What I refer? European Union Varroa Group. it worked 1988 - 2006. they have published enough what to do.

There was a place to a named British man to but he did not participated to the work.
Don't shout to me.

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[mbc]

yes but I know that manufactures texts are not allways honest. Yes I know. I have seen them so much.

What I refer? European Union Varroa Group. it worked 1988 - 2006. they have published enough what to do.

There was a place to a named British man to but he did not participated to the work.
Don't shout to me.

.

I wasnt shouting Finman.
I've met Dr. Max Watkins of Vita and I got the impression he would sell a sheep as a cow, but he'd also point out it went "me-eh" instead of "moo".

 

[Finman]

.
Me-eh and moo is written in Finnish bä-ä-ää ja ammuu.

Last year we had a case when a companyt had made thymol slices.
It had thymol too few and it worked not at all.

In Canada a company says that a medicine affects under brood cappings and on chalk brood too.
The boath are lies and researches are afraid to say that. They are depended somehow on comppany.