Standard Nationals or 14×12

[Neil]

Hi all,
This is more directed to those who have a substantial amount of national hives. Just wondered what your thoughts were on the size of the standard brood boxes, do you think they're adequate in size or, if you were to start over again, would you go with the 14×12's?
I'm increasing rapidly and don't want to invest only to look back and think I should have got bigger brood boxes.
I appreciate that we don't get the same warm weather in the UK as the rest of Europe so the queens probably aren't as prolific at laying so that will have some bearing. I've been happy with the standard box up to now, but that's down to the fact that I split and increase.
Cheers Neil.

 

[REDWOOD]

I don't have vast amounts of 14x12 but a lot cheaper to convert your nationals into 14x12 rather than bin the lot

 

[oliver90owner]

As per Redwood. A no-brainer really. Most of mine were bought in as deeps. Ekes are cheap and easy to make; can be easily converted back to deeps. Just think about it.

RAB

 

[dpearce4]

Personally I feel that you should go for the 14x12 or commercial, the national is now to small, hence the number of beekeepers going onto brood and a half. With the number of queens being imported to the uk that are more prolific than the 'local' bees and the weather going in a warming trend it makes sense to let the queen have as much space to lay as possible.

Last year I had a couple of hives that I had to have as double brood 14x12 and there was brood on 18 of the frames, due to the space the bees had they didn't try and swarm and they were great honey producers.

 

[Swarm]

Double brood and/or even triple is still an option.

 

[fiftyjon]

Double brood and/or even triple is still an option.

And for me the better option.

 

[Ely]

There is always the one size box method without an excuder. The brood nest is as big as it wants to be then too

 

[farbee]

Personally I feel that you should go for the 14x12 or commercial, the national is now to small, hence the number of beekeepers going onto brood and a half. With the number of queens being imported to the uk that are more prolific than the 'local' bees and the weather going in a warming trend it makes sense to let the queen have as much space to lay as possible.

Last year I had a couple of hives that I had to have as double brood 14x12 and there was brood on 18 of the frames, due to the space the bees had they didn't try and swarm and they were great honey producers.

Where did you get those prolific queens from?

 

[Norfolk]

There is always the one size box method without an excuder. The brood nest is as big as it wants to be then too

That's actually not a bad idea.
Might it not mean a bit less honey if the brood expands into what you would call a super ?

 

[mbc]

In my opinion the 14x12 frame is an ungainly curse.

 

[dpearce4]

Where did you get those prolific queens from?

They were the progeny of my local bees that had mated with some drones of a local bee suppliers imported queens.

I will say they were very prolific but also real bitches, even the farmer had to keep his tractor windows shut when he was working in it on the other side of the barn to where the hives are as he kept being stung by them.

 

[Hivemaker.]

In my opinion the 14x12 frame is an ungainly curse.

I agree with that 100%.

 

[dpearce4]

That's actually not a bad idea.
Might it not mean a bit less honey if the brood expands into what you would call a super ?

nope because as they fill the second box to nearly full you then add a third just like you would with a normal super.

 

[oliver90owner]

This thread has already gone crazy.

Double 14 x 12. 140k potential brood cells? Just not necessary, even with a beeno 5000 eggs per day queen and not having any rest after a couple of weeks. Just totally bizarre!

Exactly the same for triple broods, unless the beek is using shallows as broods. Some common sense needs to be applied, mand also some thought that new beeks will be introduced to bizarre ideas before they even get going.

As for OSBs and no queen excluder. What about any box and no Q/E? Think a bit more laterally and be less blinkered is my suggestion.

End of thread for me. It could get worse, like so many threads that degenerate into farce.

RAB

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

In my opinion the 14x12 frame is an ungainly curse.

They were the progeny of my local bees that had mated with some drones of a local bee suppliers imported queens.

I will say they were very prolific but also real bitches, even the farmer had to keep his tractor windows shut when he was working in it on the other side of the barn to where the hives are as he kept being stung by them.

Obviously the answer then is steer well clear of these 'wonderful' imported queens and go for something more suitable, then probably a standard Nat wouldn't be such a problem.
I have had no problems thus far with amm/local bees on standard national broods - it's all about good management.

This thread has already gone crazy.

Double 14 x 12.

Exactly the same for triple broods,..... Some common sense needs to be applied,.... and also some thought that new beeks will be introduced to bizarre ideas before they even get going.

As for OSBs and no queen excluder. What about any box and no Q/E? Think a bit more laterally and be less blinkered is my suggestion.

As for OSBs and no queen excluder. What about any box and no Q/E? Think a bit more laterally and be less blinkered is my suggestion.

Well you only have to guess at his on-line mentor/guru to know where that comes from!

 

[davnig]

what's the reasoning behind 14x12 being an ungainly curse, what are the drawbacks?

And what is the 'gainly' solution - commercial?

 

[thurrock bees]

I used to use nationals, however im now going over the 14x12 as they are bigger for the queens and easier for winter feeding instead of overwintering on brood and half.

 

[dpearce4]

what's the reasoning behind 14x12 being an ungainly curse, what are the drawbacks?

And what is the 'gainly' solution - commercial?

commercial has its own problems, with its short lugs. but the plus side is its easy to make the broodbox.

 

[mbc]

what's the reasoning behind 14x12 being an ungainly curse, what are the drawbacks?

And what is the 'gainly' solution - commercial?

Yes commercial brood frames are more gainly than 14x12, as are national, smith, langstroth and dadant.
The 14x12 is big and almost as deep as it is wide and IMO this makes for a very awkward, heavy and cumbersome frame to inspect. I wouldnt have thought that many commercial beekeepers have opted for this format as inspecting a large number would be very fatiguing.

 

[pargyle]

Yes commercial brood frames are more gainly than 14x12, as are national, smith, langstroth and dadant.
The 14x12 is big and almost as deep as it is wide and IMO this makes for a very awkward, heavy and cumbersome frame to inspect. I wouldnt have thought that many commercial beekeepers have opted for this format as inspecting a large number would be very fatiguing.

I'd actually agree with this ... my LDH has 14x12 and it's ideal, as far as I can see, for brood frames but even though my hive is nicely positioned at a height so I can lift the frames out easily they are ungainly to handle and I had to make a frame holder as I couldn't confidently hold a full frame with one hand in order to photograph them.