Spliting brood with foundation ?

[Jed D]

Would you Split brood with foundation ?

Now for the reason behide the question...

Cast swarm 22nd May ,
Straight on to 11 frames of foundation , including 1 shallow frame ).
June 18th 3 frames of brood ( Hooray ) Just about to tip them out.
June 25th 5 Bias , Marked Queen.
July 1st 6 Bias ' very little laying space, full of stores + 1 Brood frame to draw , moved foundation 1 frame over.
July 8th 6 Bias , no laying space !!! Added semi drawn super to clear some space.. 1 Brood foundation to draw.
July 14th 8 Bias , 2 Q/cups M/T , Drone brood capped & checked , Super being drawn & filling up. 1 Brood frame to draw !!!

 

[beeno]

Hi Jed,
With 15 hives I would hope you could pinch some drawn brood frames from elsewhere and move store brood frames out of this hive. I have split the brood before and got away with it (don't have swarmy bees), but if a flow is on they might prefer to swarm instead! It's a risk which only you can decide whether you want to take or not. I would not unless I had to.

 

[stucat]

Do you meant to split the brood just to get the foundation drawn ? Wait till the brood in the frame next to it have all emerged, then swap them.
You could do it now but you'll likely find a lot of dead brood on the landing board in the coming days.
Or as already said swap it for a drawn one from another hive.

 

[jonnybeegood]

Ive done it jed several times, i usually do it between frames of capped brood that doesnt interrupt the feeding of young brood, i only do it when the weathers good & a flow on, putting the foundation in the middle warms it to help them draw it.
I'm not telling you to do this as i dont know your bees colony i'm just saying what i do & its always worked for me.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Would you Split brood with foundation ?

No, I wouldn't.

If they need the space in the brood area they will draw comb. Your bees are using the super, they're more likely to draw foundation when they start backfilling the brood nest for winter.

If you're desperate to get them to draw that frame it's better to place it next to the brood nest rather than in the middle, otherwise you risk late swarm preparations because half the colony can believe they are queenless.

But you already know all this - with 15 colonies you're likely to have been keeping bees for more than a year.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

i'm just saying what i do & its always worked for me.

Always is a relative term you talking years or days?

But you already know all this - with 15 colonies you're likely to have been keeping bees for more than a year.

 

[wessexmario]

July 8th 6 Bias , no laying space !!! Added semi drawn super to clear some space.. 1 Brood foundation to draw.

You have a productive queen, why don't you add another brood box? (shallow or deep)
Bees prefer expanding vertically rather than horizontally, in all my double broods the outer frames are just stores.

I'd put alternate frames from the brood box into the new second brood box,
push the frames in both boxes all to the centre,
then fill the outer space in both boxes with drawn comb if you have it or foundation.

 

[Finman]

.
No idea a to split the brood area. And reason: You put them draw one foundation.
Bees will draw all the 50 foundations what a good hive needs. Do not push them. You hive build up will suffer under your leadership.

 

[Finman]

Ive done it jed several times, i usually do it between

putting the foundation in the middle warms it to help them draw it.
.

You help them...... How...

Bees try to keep warm brood and you want heat foundations.

Bees try to have maximum amount of brood what they can nurse and they keep the brood area compact and round shape.

 

[Finman]

Would you Split brood with foundation ?

Now for the reason behide the question...

Cast swarm 22nd May ,
Straight on to 11 frames of foundation , including 1 shallow frame ).
June 18th 3 frames of brood ( Hooray ) Just about to tip them out.
June 25th 5 Bias , Marked Queen.
July 1st 6 Bias ' very little laying space, full of stores + 1 Brood frame to draw , moved foundation 1 frame over.
July 8th 6 Bias , no laying space !!! Added semi drawn super to clear some space.. 1 Brood foundation to draw.
July 14th 8 Bias , 2 Q/cups M/T , Drone brood capped & checked , Super being drawn & filling up. 1 Brood frame to draw !!!

Is it time to extract the capped frames. Your colony will dwindle away before autumn.

.

 

[B+.]

Bees try to keep warm brood and you want heat foundations.
Bees try to have maximum amount of brood what they can nurse and they keep the brood area compact and round shape.

Exactly!
Isolating the brood with frames of foundations might just start them off building emergency cells too

 

[stucat]

So in short , its not a good idea, but as JBG said it may well but work and the extra warmth of the brood patch would make the new foundation easier to draw. I've actually seen bees emerging from a frame 5 days after it was taken out of the hive.

 

[stucat]

Exactly!
Isolating the brood with frames of foundations might just start them off building emergency cells too

I can see that happening in a single brood box, but does it still happen on double broodsbroods ?
I've always stuck to " its not a good idea" so I've never seen it.

 

[BeeJayBee]

So in short , its not a good idea, but as JBG said it may well but work and the extra warmth of the brood patch would make the new foundation easier to draw.

To be fair JBG can't answer because he's not active on the forum just now, but he has only been keeping bees for about a year which means his, "... what i do & its always worked for me ..." might be pure luck and doesn't match the experience of many beekeepers who've been working with bees a bit longer.

Trying to make bees conform with what the beekeeper wants is often a mistake. If bees don't think they need 11 frames of comb they won't draw them all, no matter what the beekeeper tries to make them do.

Attempting to force them into action by splitting the broodnest with a frame of foundation will mean that the bees in the side of the box that doesn't have a laying queen might well start making queen cells. B+ has already said this!

Isolating the brood with frames of foundations might just start them off building emergency cells too

I've seen this happen with too many overenthusiastic new beekeepers who've read 'somewhere' (they never say where) that splitting the broodnest is a good thing. They push ahead without reading the colony or the time of year, and panic when the bees completely ignore the foundation and start making multiple emergency cells.

The other thing that can go horribly wrong is adding foundation to each side of the brood nest in the wrong part of autumn. It quickly gets too cold for drawing comb, especially at night, and the colony ends up stuck in the old brood area, unwilling to move past those empty frames to find their stores. The colony starves to death.

 

[bontbee]

Well, just to buck the trend: with a young queen I would stick the last frame of foundation in the centre of the box.... I have done this many times - even checkerboarding foundation with brood frames - and haven't had any issue with emergency cells.

It has worked with two year old queens - where the colony has been strong. Even a smallish colony with a good, young queen will not be put off by a foundation in the middle of the brood nest.... That's my experience, anyway!

PS I work Nationals

 

[mbc]

Like many on here I tried adding frames of foundation in the brood nest at the time of the autumn feed as described by iltd in another excellent post by him, and it works a treat if done sensitively i.e. not expecting too much of the bees at this declining strength time of the year, though good lots are quite capable of drawing two or three new frames. Someone who's a wiz at the search function (not me!)may be able to link to that old thread.

 

[Mrs Shoot]

May be spray in the foundation with some sugar solution will get them interested in drawing it out.

 

[Finman]

May be spray in the foundation with some sugar solution will get them interested in drawing it out.

No.

Question is not about interest. It is, that beekeeper put bees do things which bees do not want to do or are not able to do.

For example, I have never freshened up old foundations with hair blower, but bees have drawn every single foundation during my 50 years beekeeping.

This year I have made lots of AS. If I give 3 foundation boxes and they draw only partly the third, I take it off and give to another hive.

 

[Jed D]

Well I was sitting at the computer waiting for the sun to come up , so I just thought I'd throw that one out there , to see what sort of responce came back....
There are a few no no's in beekeeping and for most of us this is one of them !
As with all things in beekeeping , there are so many variables and it really comes down too " learning to read whats in front of you "

I've sorted it by swopping the foundation for a drawn frame , from a sister swarm.
The same chimmey chucks out 2/3 swarms a year.
This was the first swarm, the following 2 swarms were dropped into nucs & have since been combind.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Like many on here I tried adding frames of foundation in the brood nest at the time of the autumn feed as described by iltd in another excellent post by him, and it works a treat if done sensitively i.e. not expecting too much of the bees at this declining strength time of the year, though good lots are quite capable of drawing two or three new frames. Someone who's a wiz at the search function (not me!)may be able to link to that old thread.

I have done the very same thing in the autumn. The wax gets drawn and the queen lays the entire frame with winter bees. It works a treat in a strong colony with a young queen.