Poor queen introduction rate

[jeff33]

It's the first year I am introducing new queens to change my stock of now mongrels and I haven't had much luck. The first queen I had back in May was put in a nuc which built up nicely and after combining with another hive they want to supercede her. Same with 2 other hives where I introduced queens only. Is it usual? If I leave them supercede I will be back to square one with open mating and mongrels. Any suggestions other than putting these queens in nucs please? Thanks

 

[B+.]

Any suggestions other than putting these queens in nucs please? Thanks

I would have introduced the new queen to a nuc (I have 13 in nucs now that came from Germany and The Netherlands).
It always seems to be the older bees that cause the trouble, so, make sure that your nuc contains mostly young bees that will feed and groom the queen. They will also look after any emerging brood which will, naturally, take the queen as their own. You could move the nuc a few yards away and the older bees will drift back to their old spot or another hive.
You could also give them a little 1:1 syrup if there is nothing coming in. It may be that this will keep them occupied while the new queen comes back into laying condition (if she came any distance through the post, it is possible that she is out of laying condition).
Be patient. Allow your queen to build up her own workers so they are related to her before combining them with another nuc. You may not need to as there is still plenty of time for them to build up before winter.

 

[colinc]

I think these new queens were fine in the nuc but the hive they were then put into wanted to reject them.


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[Quis Custodiet]

jeff33, what you have been told by B+ is, in my view entirely accurate. We find here that if there is any significant degree of AMM in the hive being requeened, it will be very difficult and the nucleus method has to be used. Make the nucleus with plenty of young bees, but do NOT make it too strong when starting, but add frames of emerging brood as time progresses.

 

[Eyeman]

I'm having the same problem. No problems introducing the new (outsider) queen into a 6 frame nuc, good buildup in nuc over 2-3 weeks then difficulty with a newspaper combine with queenless local colony.
Some local colonies have been hopelessly queenless confirmed with test frames, others Ive removed the queen from 30-60 min upto 2 days before the newspaper combine.
Just seen same problem with trying to requeen with my local stock, one produced QC's with the new Q's brood and no sign of the queen, other still has the queen but has thrown up emergency QC's.
All failures have a new queen in a cage which Im leaving closed for 3-4 days then will see how they are reacting.

 

[Finman]

Australian research has revieled, that if mated Queen has been taken off before 2 weeks after mating, 30% will be replaced in the new colony. If the Queen is posted via car or aiplane, 30% will be replaced.

Once I bought from Italy 4 queens and all were superceded in a month.

So, it is not bad luck. IT is usual phenomenon. How those cases happens with individual, it cannot be counted.

Once I reared 10 new own queens and 30% out of them was repladed when I changes then at once to the new hives.


When you introduce even an old new queen, you must inspect, do they start to rear their own queen and do they have destroyed emergency cells.

 

[B+.]

Once I bought from Italy 4 queens and all were superceded in a month.

I have 13 in nucs now. 100% acceptance. The dangerous time for new queens is the first hour. If they don't attack her straight away, they will usually accept her. You just have to have patience. Now they are running free in the nuc, I would leave them alone for a week. Resist the temptation to keep checking on her. Its this disturbance that can cause her to to be superceded.

 

[Eyeman]

Australian research has revieled, that if mated Queen has been taken off before 2 weeks after mating, 30% will be replaced in the new colony. If the Queen is posted via car or aiplane, 30% will be replaced.

Once I bought from Italy 4 queens and all were superceded in a month.

So, it is not bad luck. IT is usual phenomenon. How those cases happens with individual, it cannot be counted.

Once I reared 10 new own queens and 30% out of them was repladed when I changes then at once to the new hives.


When you introduce even an old new queen, you must inspect, do they start to rear their own queen and do they have destroyed emergency cells.

These are new queens which were successfully introduced into a 6 frame nucs but the problem was combining that 6 frame nuc with a queenless main colony. In the past I not had problems with newspaper combined but this year it's proving difficult

 

[Into the lions den]

Australian research has revieled, that if mated Queen has been taken off before 2 weeks after mating, 30% will be replaced in the new colony. If the Queen is posted via car or aiplane, 30% will be replaced.

Sorry, but I introduce literally hundreds, maybe over 1000, queens each year, many of which are moved by air or road and can sometimes have been caged for up to 2 weeks. This result (30% loss) would be a disaster. Failure rate is more like in the 5 to 15% range.

Our own queens we take as soon as there is a good pattern and they are very fresh when introduced and its not at all unusual to get 100% acceptance, but more commonly around 90 to 95% over significant number (I have 40 sitting in my office right now to do later today into nucs.

You always learn something and one thing that I had not realised until talking to one of my Italian breeder friends about some problems a couple of years back is that supercedure efforts in the new host colony do not necessarily mean the queen has a problem. They quite frequently try to supercede early if the new queen has a radical genetic difference to the bees you are trying to add her to. They told me to just keep knocking off the supercedure cells until such time as the colony bees became mostly the progeny of the new queen. I was sceptical it was covering up for duff queens (ok,,,sometimes that happens) but lo and behold they were perfectly correct. Once they settled down all was as it should be and the new queens went on to be good.

Ditto with package bees. The queens and the bees are unrelated and supercedure efforts can start immediately. nothing wrong with the queen, its the differences that can be causing it. this happens even within a race or type, does not have to be with some of the 'awkward squad' like mellifera, iberica or sicula. (Amm is the least difficult of that bunch.)

Have six queens here this year grafted from Finnish mothers........have been having just that issue with those, but now its all their own bees in the hives they are fine.

 

[kevrhcfag]

It happens quite often, usually check she's accepted and leave them to it for a while. Then look for cell pull it down and usually don't bother anymore, the odd one will just keep building them and that tends to be for a reason. You can even move the queen and find the next hive just carries on regardless without any cells being built.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I think it was Bro Adam that said that you can't judge a queen until she is surrounded by her own progeny.

 

[For want of a better word]

Not 100's as I am not in ILTD's league!
BUT I have had a very good success rate 99%..when introducing Native Black ( Cornish) Amm into nucs made up from young NZ Italian stock.

I carry out a 1/2 AS through a qx on a strong double BB Aml colony and use the brood and food from that colony to make up 6 three framed nucs... knocking back the original colony to one BB with the queen, and allowing 24 hours for the flying bees to go back to the originating colony.... and feed everything! The nucs ( minus any drones as excluded) are brought back to my home apiary, checked for any efforts of queen raising on day four / five and the nice new native queens ( mated at my isolated apiary or from AI) are introduced in an intro cage.

I have tried the Irish method of spraying the queen with sugary water and just chucking her in ( There was a video on it with very bad sound some years back?)
Possibly the reason for failure.. especially if old bees are used... nothing to do with race, bad beekeeping practice more likely.... In MY Opinion... before I get any more threats of libel action!!!!!

Yeghes da

 

[Finman]

.
I have just emerging queens which I reared. Perhaps 20. I have a mating nuc made by deviding polybox into 3 pieces. Then missing wall from construction polystyrene board. Glue exoanding polystyrene glue. I get 3 mating nucs from one polybox. Brood size is most handy.

Now I take mating nuc bees from same give which reared virgins. Then I carry them to another yards.

No losses.


When I made multi cell boxes 3-4 and I took nuc bees from other hives, losses were about 50%.

Then introduction to final hives is another story. Very difficult if bees do not get yield or it is Late summer. Life teaches.

When the Queen has layed 1 month, it is easy to introduce compared to newly mated.

 

[madasafish]

In MY Opinion... before I get any more threats of libel action!!!!!

Yeghes da

Hmm I hope you get none. The originators must have an overrated sense of their own importance..In MY Opinion

 

[jeff33]

I had success this year with similar breeds but the others with different breeds are not playing up. I have tried to keep as local and similar as possible as I knew different breeds like buckies are more difficult to introduce. I will try the knocking down method.

 

[Eyeman]

3 days after putting the queen in a closed cage the bees are definitely calm around the cage and even forming a retinue. Released the queen and she confidently disappeared between the frames.
Fingers crossed for next inspection in 1 week

 

[Into the lions den]

BUT I have had a very good success rate 99%..when introducing Native Black ( Cornish) Amm into nucs made up from young NZ Italian stock.

That's the right way round for a good success rate. Less easy in reverse, but with the right methodology still works for the most part.

Ok its a bit tenuous, but bees are a bit like blood groups......some require only their own type (iberica is worst) and others (especially ligustica) will accept anything (just about).

However we do prefer to use the press in type cages, on hatching brood, especially if introducing Buckfast or carnica into black bees. Still get a good success rate using those, failures half or less of the rate using the shipping cages.

Dunking the shipping cage complete with queen and attendants in a tub of water looks dramatic.....but it stops the queen from flying and makes picking her out to put alone in the press in cage a cinch.

 

[colinc]

That's the right way round for a good success rate. Less easy in reverse, but with the right methodology still works for the most part.



Ok its a bit tenuous, but bees are a bit like blood groups......some require only their own type (iberica is worst) and others (especially ligustica) will accept anything (just about).



However we do prefer to use the press in type cages, on hatching brood, especially if introducing Buckfast or carnica into black bees. Still get a good success rate using those, failures half or less of the rate using the shipping cages.



Dunking the shipping cage complete with queen and attendants in a tub of water looks dramatic.....but it stops the queen from flying and makes picking her out to put alone in the press in cage a cinch.

Useful to know the dunking tip as I may be requeening my old girl colony next year. Will use a push in cage for certain.


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[Beefriendly]

In MY Opinion... before I get any more threats of libel action!!!!!

Ohh come on spill the beans.....who or what have you libeled. Sounds like fun

 

[Finman]

.
I wonder what native helps in introduction success rate?