Insulation?

Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum

Help Support Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Yeah, no. Before my wireless thermometer corked out, a very weak swarm going into winter (2 seams of bees! 2!) was maintaining an ambient temperature 2-4C higher than the outside...on the dummy board 5 frames away and six inches down from the roof. When the temperature was down around freezing I tilted up the roof edge and stuck my hand on the crown board to find it positively toasty under its insulation, and a quick glance revealed bees wandering over the frames with zero signs of clustering.

The primary driver of store consumption by bees isn't moving around, it's transforming all that sugar into heat through the insanely wasteful process of using their wing muscles. Which they do in the cluster. To produce heat. Which they need to live.

So your comment of 'they would run around all winter to save stores' is very strange. Bees running around in winter are bees in an environment where they don't need to be using their stores much at all. They feel the hive is warm enough for them. What you're saying seems to be approaching the winter stores from the wrong direction. They aren't hibernating - there's not some magical temperature where they feel the need to eat less. Stores in winter isn't food in human terms, it's firewood. Make sure your windows are closed and the house is well insulated and you don't have to use so much of it. Translated into human terms what you are saying is 'at 4C you can keep the fire burning low and use the least wood' and what we are saying is 'insulate properly and you don't need to light the fire (ie, cluster) in the first place'.
I had decided to let this drop, however up you popped...

I'm not going to answer your comments directly because you have twisted my words. I never mentioned hibernation. There is a magical temperature it's 4C. Oh bollocks I said I wasn't going to do that...
 
In post #36 Dani said " Active bees use fewer stores. "

I challenged that and still have not seen an argument to support that statement. I am not arguing about wood vs poly.

This chart "borrowed" from Randy Oliver:
1616110662176.png
clearly shows the magic ambient temperature (in the hive) of 4C. If the ambient is higher than 4C the bees will use more stores as they will if it is lower. Bees will only be "active" at temperaures above 4C. I rest my case.
 
In post #36 Dani said " Active bees use fewer stores. "

I am not arguing about wood vs poly.

Bees will only be "active" at temperaures above 4C. I rest my case.
I wasn't really comparing wood v poly but uninsulated v insulated
Wasn't Randy's work in uninsulated wooden hives?
 
In post #36 Dani said " Active bees use fewer stores. "

I challenged that and still have not seen an argument to support that statement. I am not arguing about wood vs poly.

This chart "borrowed" from Randy Oliver:
View attachment 24969
clearly shows the magic ambient temperature (in the hive) of 4C. If the ambient is higher than 4C the bees will use more stores as they will if it is lower. Bees will only be "active" at temperaures above 4C. I rest my case.


Interesting - would that imply then that if ambient temperatures are forecast to be below 4c for several days (eg the cold spell we had in February) you would advocate insulating a (wooden) hive but above 4c you'd leave them be (no pun intended)
 
I've never used insulation before but this winter our Christmas dinner arrived wrapped in a couple of those bags containing sheeps wool that others have mentioned so I put an eke on both my hives and put a bag on each - it worked out quite well as both have needed fondant which was easy to put on under the fleece. I've not had chance to have a look into hives yet (swmbo had me drop her in town and go to B&Q a couple of weekends ago when we had the really warm spell) but I can see both have survived the winter so at a zero cost/minimal effort to me I'd do it again this coming winter.
 
Sayle said: cluster consumption is indeed lowest at the ambient 4C, after which point it savagely ramps up as temperature drops.

That’s right. When the temperature drops they need to generate more heat to survive. At some point, the heat generation would be insufficient to maintain the cluster temperature of around 8 degrees and bees would start to fall away and perish. Dead bees do not aid the cluster temperature and so there would be an ever-increasing downward spiral until either there were no live bees, unless the temperature returned to a survivable value.

G———- quotes a graph of metabolic rate versus ambient temperature which is rubbish. Insulation has nothing to do with metabolic rate - insulation prevents the heat energy, within the hive, leaking out at a high rate. That graph is totally flawed, for this discussion, and therefore useless and completely irrelevant.

That graph relating to the ambient temperature might remain much the same above 4 degrees Celsius, whether there was insulation or not, but the part for less than 4 degrees might very much depend on the amount of heat loss from the bees - AND THAT RELATES TO THE AMOUNT OF INSULATION, particularly above the cluster. Geddit?

Sayle was clearly trained to think. This other ‘beekeeper’ clearly does not think very clearly, if at all. A case of the blind trying to lead the blind, I think, in the latter case.

I know that heat rises from a body supended in a fluid, by initial conduction due to a delta T (where T = Temperature) from the body to the fluid, then by convection due to a delta D (where D = Density) within the fluid. Simple Physics. Very simple Physics.

RAB. B.Sc.
 
Interesting - would that imply then that if ambient temperatures are forecast to be below 4c for several days (eg the cold spell we had in February) you would advocate insulating a (wooden) hive but above 4c you'd leave them be (no pun intended)
No. I am not arguing any case for wood or poly or insulation. I am just challenging Dani's statement.
 
I've never used insulation before but this winter our Christmas dinner arrived wrapped in a couple of those bags containing sheeps wool that others have mentioned so I put an eke on both my hives and put a bag on each - it worked out quite well as both have needed fondant which was easy to put on under the fleece. I've not had chance to have a look into hives yet (swmbo had me drop her in town and go to B&Q a couple of weekends ago when we had the really warm spell) but I can see both have survived the winter so at a zero cost/minimal effort to me I'd do it again this coming winter.
I do agree that insulation on the crownboard is good thing, for more than one reason.
 
I wasn't really comparing wood v poly but uninsulated v insulated
Wasn't Randy's work in uninsulated wooden hives?

Randy lives in California. He is surely a great winter specialist.

In Michigan the university advices that give 3 langstroth boxes to the wintering hive and 50 kg sugar.
 
No. I am not arguing any case for wood or poly or insulation. I am just challenging Dani's statement.
Is anecdotal evidence worth less than experimental?
And perhaps I should clarify that I mean overwintering bees in case somebody assumes I meant actively foraging, flying, bees.
 
Have you used insulation this year?

The start of this chain is special.

I have same hives a year around. Same roofs, same floors and boxes. What is not same is the size on entrance.

The out temp may be -20 or in north -40C in worst time in winter. We do not know when cold comes.

Last night we had in Helsinki -8C.
 
Is anecdotal evidence worth less than experimental?
And perhaps I should clarify that I mean overwintering bees in case somebody assumes I meant actively foraging, flying, bees.

Active bees may mean too that they have brood. That makes sense in California.
In my winter it means a dead hive.
 
In post #36 Dani said " Active bees use fewer stores. "

I challenged that and still have not seen an argument to support that statement. I am not arguing about wood vs poly.

This chart "borrowed" from Randy Oliver:
View attachment 24969
clearly shows the magic ambient temperature (in the hive) of 4C. If the ambient is higher than 4C the bees will use more stores as they will if it is lower. Bees will only be "active" at temperaures above 4C. I rest my case.

That chart is nonsense in my country. In South Finland -20 C is rare and it happens in January and February.

+20C is in June and hive is growing and and it has 3 times more bees than in winter. And 2 boxes broood.Only cluster what I know in summer is main swarm and late swarm

In summer a hive uses 0,5 kg sugar in a day. In January a hives uses 2 kg sugar in a month.

That picture is nonsense. Where that happening is possible and who needs that knowledge? For wintering or for summering?
 
Last edited:
Couldn’t be bothered to check the spelling. Unimportant. Just someone trying to use an inappropriate graph, which did not even address the real issue under consideration. A case of bull excrement trying to baffle brains? I expect so, or he (she) doesn’t know any better - which I suspect is likely closer to the truth. That sort of thing doesn’t ‘wash’ with me.

As a now famous fellow once said ‘There are lies, damn lies and statistics’.
 
Warmth under an insulated crown board = lack of condensation which is generally reckoned to be good for bees. Sweating keeps you cool as the water vapourizes, The better heat retention the better the spring build up and the more stores for wax building which is one of the highest energy consumption duties for the bees {apart from brood rearing). Insulate, insulate and insulate. I line every roof with polystyrene sheet on top of the crown board using a poly hive with an open mesh floor. There is a very reduced entrance purely to keep mice and wasps out and the entrance is small all year.
 
If you have a thick roof, that is not insulation.

Walls leak heat as before.

Like as said, I use same boxes and same roof the yrar around. I do noy need insulate antthing .
Just now my hive district has -10C temperarute.
 
Last edited:
Sayle said: cluster consumption is indeed lowest at the ambient 4C, after which point it savagely ramps up as temperature drops.


But what hives live always at the temp of 4C?

What is the philosophy of this discussion.

Just now my hives are -10C. But they have food stores up to to May.

Winter food per hive costs £ 12.
 
I stated my argument, challenging the statement, "Active bees use fewer stores" . Does anybody here have an argument refuting mine? I don't want to argue about poly hives vs wood, winter temperatures, feeding sugar or insulating crown boards. Please, someone tell why I am wrong and that active bees do actually use fewer stores than clustered bees. Otherwise I shall assume I am correct.
 
I stated my argument, challenging the statement, "Active bees use fewer stores" . Does anybody here have an argument refuting mine? I don't want to argue about poly hives vs wood, winter temperatures, feeding sugar or insulating crown boards. Please, someone tell why I am wrong and that active bees do actually use fewer stores than clustered bees. Otherwise I shall assume I am correct.


What means active bees?
What was your argument? But please, in practical world.

After 60 years beekeeping I do not understand, what you are saying.

there is no place in the world where bees can live at the +4C environment.

My fact, not argument, is that my hives consume during winter on average 20 kg sugar during 9 month.
 
Last edited:

Latest posts

Back
Top