Insulation: I don't get it!

[Finman]

will simply come from the breakdown of stores irrelevant of its source. ie: sugar breaks down into CO2 and H20. Could be enough water from this . ??

10 kg winter food produces 7 kg water.
10 kg food is consumed about in 5 winter months without brood.

In Britain you should not have problem with water because bees can visit outside quite often.
In Finland hive cannot visit outside or bring water outside during 4-5 wintering month.

 

[Little John]

The problem with physicists would appear to be that they are bringing static physical principles into the beehive, and completely ignoring the dynamic biology involved.

Take this for example:

Air humidity also affects the effectiveness of queens’ wintering. High air humidity shortens the life of wintering bees (Nerum and Buelens, 1997). In our assay, an average of 55% of colonies kept in MP nuclei overwintered in a cellar at approximately 4 deg C (Tab. 2). The high air humidity (RH 95 - 100%) in the cellar in Olsztyn during the 2005 - 2006 season reduced the overwintering of queens to only 22%.
Reducing humidity to RH 65 - 75 by using extra air-drying equipment during the next two seasons increased the survival of queens in MP nuclei in the cellar to 70% and 67%.

Wintering Reserve Queens in Mini-Plus and 3-Comb Nuclei, Woyke et al, J. APIC. SCI. Vol. 58 No. 1 2014

It is important to recognise that the underlying purpose of clustering is to regulate and preserve the internal heat of that cluster, but whilst doing so they are unable to regulate the humidity within the hive by fanning.

It is for this reason that I insulate the top of hives, but keep the walls uninsulated. Then - during cold nights, the high humidity within the beehive is relieved by condensate forming on the hive walls and exiting the hive. Insulating the walls would prevent this from happening.

Yes - you can have too much insulation ....

LJ

 

[midnight sun]

10 kg winter food produces 7 kg water.
10 kg food is consumed about in 5 winter months without brood.

In Britain you should not have problem with water because bees can visit outside quite often.
In Finland hive cannot visit outside or bring water outside during 4-5 wintering month.

Hi Finman. Not knowing how much water my bees actually use, do you think that in winter (English) that there could be enough produced from metabolism in the clustered state to prevent the need to 'forage' from outside? (no need to use water for cooling by evaporation, for a start). I'd be interested in your thoughts or if you could point me in the direction of any papers on this.
Regards Dave

 

[oliver90owner]

Yes - you can have too much insulation ...

Yes, of course, there are limits. But polyhives have far more insulative properties than timber (with 18/19mm thickness). Ask that small cohort of one, with c.2000 colonies, perhaps?

Common sense should prevail, so not going to the ultimate extremes. How many colonies survive the winter with no insulative protection whatsoever? OK, Mary in Warwickshire had a colony unprotected on two 'sides' for two winters, but show me any that survive with no protection at all!

Right, so we have no insulation equates to death of the colony;I know that 5mm ply is good enough for bees to survive the winter; we know that 18mm timber is good enough for many to survive fairly easily (with extra insulation in the form of outside frames); we know, from the cohort of one, that polyhives with 40mm walls are better than timber; so exactly how much ESP is too much? 100mm, 200mm, 300mm?

I don't know of anyone who goes to those levels of insulation. So which would be the optimum between the normal 40mm thick walls of a polyhive and 100mm thick walls. Anyone know?

No? OK, lets settle on 40mm of polystyrene as a good level of insulation? Then insulating all timber hives to the same level is simply the common sense answer - just like the 'cohort of one' did when changing from timber to polyhives. QED?

I think so. Simple. Insulate all hives to the same level as the standard polyhives presently available. End of story.

RAB

 

[Finman]

No? OK, lets settle on 40mm of polystyrene as a good level of insulation?

I think so. Simple. Insulate all hives to the same level as the standard polyhives presently available. End of story.

RAB

New models of polyhives have now 40 mm thickess but older models a few years ago had only 20 mm (half of the wall).
And that has worked well enough.

 

[user 6228]

The problem with physicists would appear to be that they are bringing static physical principles into the beehive, and completely ignoring the dynamic biology involved.

Take this for example:




It is important to recognise that the underlying purpose of clustering is to regulate and preserve the internal heat of that cluster, but whilst doing so they are unable to regulate the humidity within the hive by fanning.

It is for this reason that I insulate the top of hives, but keep the walls uninsulated. Then - during cold nights, the high humidity within the beehive is relieved by condensate forming on the hive walls and exiting the hive. Insulating the walls would prevent this from happening.

Yes - you can have too much insulation ....

LJ

I suggest you read the paper you quoted ,,, its talking about OUTSIDE THE NEST humidity. lowering the external to the nest humidity reduces heat loss of the nest... External humidity is relatively meaningless to internal humidity when you have a vapour and heat source inside.

Its important for the the biologists to get the physics right as biological behaviour still has to work inside the physics.

As regards physics being static and biology dynamic i suggest you read some more about heat and mass transfer particularly where it gets into partial differential equations

 

[user 6228]

Yes - you can have too much insulation ...

Yes, of course, there are limits. But polyhives have far more insulative properties than timber (with 18/19mm thickness). Ask that small cohort of one, with c.2000 colonies, perhaps?

Common sense should prevail, so not going to the ultimate extremes. How many colonies survive the winter with no insulative protection whatsoever? OK, Mary in Warwickshire had a colony unprotected on two 'sides' for two winters, but show me any that survive with no protection at all!

Right, so we have no insulation equates to death of the colony;I know that 5mm ply is good enough for bees to survive the winter; we know that 18mm timber is good enough for many to survive fairly easily (with extra insulation in the form of outside frames); we know, from the cohort of one, that polyhives with 40mm walls are better than timber; so exactly how much ESP is too much? 100mm, 200mm, 300mm?

I don't know of anyone who goes to those levels of insulation. So which would be the optimum between the normal 40mm thick walls of a polyhive and 100mm thick walls. Anyone know?

No? OK, lets settle on 40mm of polystyrene as a good level of insulation? Then insulating all timber hives to the same level is simply the common sense answer - just like the 'cohort of one' did when changing from timber to polyhives. QED?

I think so. Simple. Insulate all hives to the same level as the standard polyhives presently available. End of story.

RAB

Bees in trees have a lot more than the equivalent of 40mm EPS , more like an average of 75mm

 

[Finman]

It is for this reason that I insulate the top of hives, but keep the walls uninsulated. Then - during cold nights, the high humidity within the beehive is relieved by condensate forming on the hive walls and exiting the hive. Insulating the walls would prevent this from happening.

Yes - you can have too much insulation ....

LJ

No sense at all in that story.

It is best that dew point and condensation happens outside the hive.

We have only insulated hive boxes during winter and we in Finland really understad the meaning of insulation. We do not need to debate about that.

As well as insulation in human houses.



.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

 

[BeeJayBee]

The truth is that in colder hive bees consume more food. Even in Finland professional guys think that warm winter consumes more food. But there are enough measuring on balance hives what happens in hives.

Simple. Insulate all hives to the same level as the standard polyhives presently available.

Trying to link these two comments with a bit of information from the trial Martin Bee mentioned. http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2015/01/gear/buzz-feeders/viewgallery/341473

Cedar National
Size of colony Three frames
Honey collected 38.5kg
No of cells for eggs or honey 75,000;
Winter temperature 21.1°C to 23.9°C

Poly National
Size of colony; Four frames;
Honey collected 45.3kg;
No of cells for eggs; or honey 75,000;
Winter temperature 23.9°C to 26.7°C​

Still not convinced for the need though.

It really does depend how you want to house your bees as well as the type of bees you have, but if you compare a modern hive with a modern house you might see that it makes good sense to at least insulate above the crown board.

Adding a slab of insulation to the top will help retain heat in the winter and help keep the inside of the hive cooler in the summer - both of which mean less work for the bees, so less call for energy (food), when they are trying to maintain the brood nest temperature, raise brood or ripen nectar etc..

The end result, over the course of a year, will more than likely be a larger surplus of stores, which means the beekeeper might take a bigger crop or there may be less need to give supplementary food and/or the bees have a more secure food source for the winter months.

 

[Hawklord]

I don't use insulation, I do use omf's, and there is a hole in the crown board. Despite these horrendous conditions they make it through winter, build up, and prepare to swarm at the same time as everybody elses colonies. I guess I must be breeding hardier bees than most beeks.

 

[pargyle]

I don't use insulation, I do use omf's, and there is a hole in the crown board. Despite these horrendous conditions they make it through winter, build up, and prepare to swarm at the same time as everybody elses colonies. I guess I must be breeding hardier bees than most beeks.

I know a few beekeepers who continue to fly in the face of modern thinking - yes, their bees survive (most of the time) ... but with all the weight of evidence presented on here don't you just wonder, occasionally, whether you are doing these hardy bees of yours a disservice ? Would they, perhaps, do even better without the hole in the crownboard and with a nice slab of 50mm Kingspan on top to give them a slightly better chance ?

Old dogs and new tricks comes to mind ....

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I suggest you read the paper you quoted ,,, its talking about OUTSIDE THE NEST humidity. lowering the external to the nest humidity reduces heat loss of the nest... External humidity is relatively meaningless to internal humidity when you have a vapour and heat source inside.

Its important for the the biologists to get the physics right as biological behaviour still has to work inside the physics.

As regards physics being static and biology dynamic i suggest you read some more about heat and mass transfer particularly where it gets into partial differential equations

I don't understand at all how the RH of a cool cellar (so, small AH differences) can have an impact like that.

<ADD>And reading the paper and some of its citations, I would be VERY careful. These are mini colonies, which does not mean the study is useless, just that YMMV. Much more importantly, the 22% cellar survival figure was a single observation. It looks as though they found the paper they cited in saying "Humidity shortens the life of wintering honeybees" and "fixed" the cellar. Giving an indicative but not a definitive result: you would need to do a lot of work to make it definitive, and it is incidental to the research anyway. I can only get to the abstract of the paper they cite "Hypoxia-Controlled Winter Metabolism in Honeybees (Apis mellifera) - diapause maintenance, termination and postdiapause development" but again, as the title indicates, humidity is not the central thrust. I will not be dehumidifying my garden on the stength of this.</ADD>

 

[Davea]

Just thought I would add my two penny worth:
Up until this year I have been running six poly hives and six nationals,all on 14 x 12, in the same location.
The polys built up quicker in the spring and produced more honey than the nationals.
To me using insulation is a no brainer.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I don't use insulation, I do use omf's, and there is a hole in the crown board. Despite these horrendous conditions they make it through winter, build up, and prepare to swarm at the same time as everybody elses colonies. I guess I must be breeding hardier bees than most beeks.

Yield?

 

[Hawklord]

Yield?

I started last year with 4 colonys, took a spring crop, split into 11 colonies making 10 new queens, and a summer crop. Honey gathered for the year was 280 lb. I don't have a big customer base to sell to, so there is no point in trying to produce too much honey.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I started last year with 4 colonys, took a spring crop, split into 11 colonies making 10 new queens, and a summer crop. Honey gathered for the year was 280 lb. I don't have a big customer base to sell to, so there is no point in trying to produce too much honey.

Can't argue with that (others may try!)

 

[Finman]

Old dogs and new tricks comes to mind ....

Thanks to heaven, that old dogs do not take seriously everything what new dogs push on these pages. There is so much quess -science on these pages.

The new dogs and inventing a wheel .

 

[Ely]

Why are so many of you obsessed with insulation. The bees don't need it.
Many of you will remember the Winter of 2010. In December my apiary reached -18C with day time temperatures no higher than -9c. I remember being worried then but bees came through with no losses and with much less varroa I seem to remember the following season.
So stop worrying about insulation.

Off my chest now!

Have you read any of the threads? You'd soon understand. I don't NEED insulation in my house. Without it though, I'll be burning a lot more fuel to keep warm. In a bee hive, it is the bees that work hard to produce the warmth using food as the fuel. It makes every sense to insulate. There isn't a single argument against insulating that stands up against reason and logic. Yes your bees may survive, but they have had to work a hell of a lot harder to survive.
The survival of the fittest argument, were people say 'if they can't survive in an uninsulated hive, then I don't want that stock', doesn't count as a valid argument. A tree nest is much more insulated than an insulated hive (standard insulation board in roof space.). So that argument would suggest you are expecting your bees to survive in much colder conditions than they would in a natural tree nest. An insulated hive isn't as warm as a natural nest but it is a little closer. No reason at all not to insulate. Common sense

And as Ericalfbee says. It's not an obsession. Stick it on and forget about it. It is very simple

 

[Ely]

Nicely put and a very interesting view point, Little John. I've been looking to insulate my hives in order to 'ease' the effort of temperature control and reduce the need for winter store reliance.
After reading your thoughts, I think I will go with insulation but not with the amount I originally intended, based on several posts from some of those you seem to refer to. It's not THAT cold in England usually.
Sort of a happy medium if you will.
Regards Dave

I think a slab or two of insulation in the roof space is adequate. I don't muck around with sleaves as that can over complicate things. Especially for people with a lot of hives.