Insulation: I don't get it!

[northernsoul]

Why are so many of you obsessed with insulation. The bees don't need it.
Many of you will remember the Winter of 2010. In December my apiary reached -18C with day time temperatures no higher than -9c. I remember being worried then but bees came through with no losses and with much less varroa I seem to remember the following season.
So stop worrying about insulation.

Off my chest now!

 

[MikeT]

I was surprised by the amount of threads on insulation. In 1963 I cannot remember us insulating hives. I have gone with the flow and insulated mine but not with Kingspan or similar, I've used old bedspreads in either deep roof or a super, bees havn't complained.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Not obsessed. I put insulation on and forget it. The wooden hives this year got a PIR jacket. If they could would bees choose a tree nest or a thin walled man made box. Who knows?

 

[Dishmop]

I was surprised by the amount of threads on insulation.

Just you wait until the syrup mixing ratio comes up then...

 

[charlievictorbravo]

We must each look after our bees the best way we know how. Those of us who insulate do so because it most accurately reflects the way bees survived in hollow trees before man put them in thin wooden boxes and gave them lots of sugar-based food to get them through the winter.

I regard a colony as an insect version of a heat engine - it takes in food and gives off heat (over the winter). The more heat it produces, the more fuel it needs. Of course, it can survive a cold winter but at the expense of food and if it runs out of food, it dies. The question for me is whether to cover the hive in a celotex cozy to keep the wind out and the heat in or to feed with sugar and let let the wind whistle through the hive, taking heat with it. Your bees, your choice!

CVB

 

[user 6228]

I was surprised by the amount of threads on insulation. In 1963 I cannot remember us insulating hives. I have gone with the flow and insulated mine but not with Kingspan or similar, I've used old bedspreads in either deep roof or a super, bees havn't complained.

Prior to the 1940 insulation of hives was common. The drive not to insulate was essentially a cost availability and ease of use issue. The Rev Langstone was an advocate of insulation as we're the prominent US beekeepers around the time of ww1 . Today insulation is cheap higher performance and light. The reasons not to insulate have disappeared.
We now build houses in this country that are insulated so that occupants own heat is sufficient to provide a comfortable temperature year round. The honeybees living in trees have had this advanced accommodation since the last glaciation.

 

[itma]

Just you wait until the syrup mixing ratio comes up then...

Yes, remember the NBU email? Well the new BBKA 'Ark' would have us believe that 2:1 should be measured in metric units … (which keen readers will know is right on the limit of solubility and so crystallises out at below 20C). Metric strong syrup is more like 60:40 …

 

[itma]

... The Rev Langstroth was an advocate of insulation as were the prominent US beekeepers around the time of ww1 . Today insulation is cheap higher performance and light. The reasons not to insulate have disappeared. …

Fixed.
You are going to have to turn off that predictive txt …

 

[Hivemaker.]

The honeybees living in trees have had this advanced accommodation since the last glaciation.

What did the have before then?

 

[user 6228]

What did the have before then?

In this country during the last glaciation ? I don't think they were in residence in the uk then.

Possibly they were in nice warm trees in spain.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Possibly they were in nice warm trees in spain.

Honey bees have been around for millions of years, my guess is that they started living in trees a long time before the last ice age.

 

[masterBK]

I have kept bees for decades without extra insulation but the last few years (since using OMF's) have used thick celotex insulation in an eke under the roof. They do not seem to have wintered any better as far as I can see but, and this is "big" but, this has saved me money as I have to buy less sugar feed to get them through to April typically 2 to 3 kilogram per hive so with 28 colonies "every little helps".

 

[pargyle]

Why are so many of you obsessed with insulation. The bees don't need it.
Many of you will remember the Winter of 2010. In December my apiary reached -18C with day time temperatures no higher than -9c. I remember being worried then but bees came through with no losses and with much less varroa I seem to remember the following season.
So stop worrying about insulation.

Off my chest now!

Not obsessed .. I was just swayed by the arguments for giving bees an environment in which they could economically maintain the ambient temperature and humidity inside the hive at the level they wanted. Insulation gives them a better opportunity to do what they want to do. Insulation in beekeeping is nothing new - it's just that it is so much easier to provide and much cheaper than in the past.

Do you also think open mesh floors are a bad idea ? Or Polystyrene hives ? Or clear polycarbonate crown boards ? Or Periscope entrances ? Or Rapid feeders ? I could go on but I'm afraid sometimes (and more so it appears in beekeeping circles) there are a few people who appear to stick in the 'Well - it works for me ?' rut and will never see the advantages of changing.

Stay in your rut if that's where you are happiest.

 

[Michael Palmer]

I don't get it either, but I won't criticize. If you believe that, in some way extra insulation helps, then by all means do it.

But, I keep bees where the temperatures fall to the -20s˚F and stay below 0F for days at a time. There may be no cleansing flights from Sometime in November to sometime in March or early April. I do insulate the crown board to reduce condensation, but no added insulation around the hive. My bees winter well. Last winter, my bees suffered a 12.5% winter loss. Totally acceptable losses when considering the number of colonies I winter.

Now, I can see the bees might consume less stores in an insulated hive, but here I manage the hives so the bees will store needed winter feed in the broodnest, and in most cases they do.

I think the most important thing in wintering honey bees is what's inside the hive...not what's on the outside.

 

[jonnybeegood]

Why are so many of you obsessed with insulation. The bees don't need it.
Many of you will remember the Winter of 2010. In December my apiary reached -18C with day time temperatures no higher than -9c. I remember being worried then but bees came through with no losses and with much less varroa I seem to remember the following season.
So stop worrying about insulation.

Off my chest now!

Why would they come through it with less varroa? If the varroa are on the bees, the bees will be keeping their temperature up which will keep the varroa healthy surely? I can see some disease etc dying in a hive when temps drop where the bees arent clustering, as these parts will be colder.

 

[Little John]

Why are so many of you obsessed with insulation.

Indeed.

On this forum there is a small cohort of individuals who believe that you cannot have too much insulation.

Personally, I don't mind if people choose to hold that view - but when they start to mock, ridicule and generally become unpleasant to those who hold alternative opinions, then I begin to get a little irritated.

One criticism which has been levelled at those who hold alternative opinions with regard to insulation is that they do not have a basic understanding of science. In my opinion it is precisely those who do have a basic understanding of science (meaning those at undergraduate level or below, or graduates in one branch of science only) who are the most dangerous when trying to convince others of their views - for they are convinced that they have an adequate understanding of ALL the issues involved in the keeping of bees - when they are far more likely to be viewing the subject through the monochromatic perceptual filter which modern specialised education creates. Just because someone has what appears to be a convincing argument, does NOT necessarily mean that they are right.

On a couple of occasions I have tried to show within these threads that 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing', but I suspect that my comments have fallen upon deaf ears.


In specific regard to insulation, one only needs to read Dzierzon's 1882 'Rational Beekeeping' for an alternative viewpoint.
Dzierzon has been talking about the use of straw etc as a filling between two wooden walls, with a total thickness of around 3 inches. (i.e. he understands well-enough the need for insulation) :

Altogether, it would be impossible to make any walls of bee-hives in contact with the external air retain heat better than by making a double wall and filling up the space between of about two inches in width with dry moss, flax, refuse, sawdust, thin shavings of wood, straw, hay, etc, etc, in order to prevent the enclosed air from circulating.

But everything has its fixed limits, which cannot be exceeded with impunity, and even in regard to the retention of heat in beehives it is possible to go too far. Too much is as bad as too little. Direct injury cannot certainly result from the hive being too warm, for the bees will not produce more heat than they want, and it would be easy for them to expel the heat produced in excess through the entrance of the hive by ventilation. Indirectly, however, too warm a hive becomes injurious by possibly causing the bees to suffer from want of water in winter, and in spring before they commence to fly out, there being nowhere a cool surface in the hive on which moisture might be precipitated. It will, therefore, be well for us to keep to the happy medium, and to make our bee-hives in the manner approved of by long experience, in order that we may not, after all, be losers after having incurred considerable expense. 'Rational Beekeeping', Dzierzon, 1882, pp.45-6

Now I'm not saying that Dzierzon is 'right', any more than I'm saying that I'm right in having a warm top with cooler sides, or that derekM is 'wrong' - what I'm saying is that each of these opinions has merit: one no more than the other, and that either approach may prove to be adequate in practice.

The idea that several entities, methodologies or designs may in fact all be 'ok', and that neither is superior to the other, is an essentially anti-Aristotelian viewpoint - just as "there are many ways of skinning a cat".

LJ

 

[MikeT]

I don't get it either, but I won't criticize. If you believe that, in some way extra insulation helps, then by all means do it.

But, I keep bees where the temperatures fall to the -20s˚F and stay below 0F for days at a time. There may be no cleansing flights from Sometime in November to sometime in March or early April. I do insulate the crown board to reduce condensation, but no added insulation around the hive. My bees winter well. Last winter, my bees suffered a 12.5% winter loss. Totally acceptable losses when considering the number of colonies I winter.

Now, I can see the bees might consume less stores in an insulated hive, but here I manage the hives so the bees will store needed winter feed in the broodnest, and in most cases they do.

I think the most important thing in wintering honey bees is what's inside the hive...not what's on the outside.

Michael your comments do not surprise me. I worked on a fruit farm on Lng Island in the late 60s where I looked after the bees. No insulation was used just large quantities of syrup. The funny thing I saw was some garden centres were covering their outdoor plant with polystyrene granules to protect against frost. What a mess when the wind blew

 

[peteinwilts]

I think the most important thing in wintering honey bees is what's inside the hive...not what's on the outside.

I fully agree, The bees want to keep themselves warm and huddle together. I use insulation to assist in what they want. If you feel the bottom of a piece of insulation, you can feel the warmth.
If the insulation is not there, then the heat will be lost, and the bees need to consume more food to produce more energy, and they will wear out that little bit faster.

Beekeeping is not about following rules (those in the BBKA should close their eyes! ). If we all did that, there would never be any advances, and we would be killing the bees in autumn to prise the honey out of the basket. (which originally was an enhancement to cutting trees apart extract the honey)

If you do not feel they 'need' insulation, then don't.
Unless it is proved that by giving insulation, we are producing truly wimpy bees, then I will continue to use it as it seems to be a sensible thing to do.

IMO it seems that giving them insulation is an evolutionary step to those that originally argued that matchsticks should not be used.

regardless of your belief, it is important to discuss and debate the reasoning, otherwise it will be back to the rulebook..

 

[midnight sun]

Nicely put and a very interesting view point, Little John. I've been looking to insulate my hives in order to 'ease' the effort of temperature control and reduce the need for winter store reliance.
After reading your thoughts, I think I will go with insulation but not with the amount I originally intended, based on several posts from some of those you seem to refer to. It's not THAT cold in England usually.
Sort of a happy medium if you will.
Regards Dave

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Not obsessed .. I was just swayed by the arguments for giving bees an environment in which they could economically maintain the ambient temperature and humidity inside the hive at the level they wanted. Insulation gives them a better opportunity to do what they want to do. Insulation in beekeeping is nothing new - it's just that it is so much easier to provide and much cheaper than in the past...

Phil
You have reported on the past that you have been keeping fairly extensive records of hive temperature and humidity. Several sources suggest that by not insulating, the bees have a source of water in the condensation that forms on the sides and/or top of the hive. How can this argument be countered - is there any evidence, based on actual measurements of temperature and humidity, that bees in insulated hives suffer from thirst/lack of water?

Maybe if the bees are generally warmer in an insulated hive, they can make short flights for taking water without succumbing to the cool temperatures outside. Discuss.

CVB