Import of NZ bees into UK

[fredbloggs]

An edit of an apology

Tried to edit the previous post but took so long it timed me out. Another award i would nominate me for is " perseverance whilst using an iphone via a wi-fi sky router that keeps logging one out" . You dont get that at the Baftas?

To continue the apple-ogies to those more discerning of the millenium gong on this thread , i have been out of action most of the day up the allotment. Came home and took a gander to see whats what and bingo!! sheer fluke?

Still after last sunday reading all 80 pages from scratch, i suppose i deserve it after all?

FB

 

[Vergilius]

1000 posts on this thread. Crickey!!!


Ben P

 

[propolis]

Originally Posted by johna
like Br Adam bees - mongrels ,that over time revert to original parents due to the viability of genes - .

Originally Posted by propolis
Interesting. Have you any personal experience of this happening, or better still are you able to point me in the direction of any studies confirming this.

Brother Adam was continuously "tinkering" with his bees.I doubt if you can now find many colonies of "Buckfast" bees that are the same as he bred.I have found from personal experience of bees bought from him that they were full of variables and mixed temper.Not terribly good to work with sometimes.

All very interesting, but that's not really a pertinent answer to the question I asked. The statement that you originally made was "that over time revert to original parents due to the viability of genes"

So are you saying that these bees will ultimately revert to Ligustica and AMM the bees that Brother Adam originally crossed to establish the strain.

 

[Norton]

If I might be permitted to intervene. If any strain is not continuosly selected and control over the matings is not carried out (AI or a mating station) then they will within a few generations resemble the general bee population of the area.

 

[propolis]

If I might be permitted to intervene. If any strain is not continuosly selected and control over the matings is not carried out (AI or a mating station) then they will within a few generations resemble the general bee population of the area.

Thanks Norton for the clarification.

 

[Into the lions den]

ps Does anyone who has stuck with this thread remember the post from the bloke who said he had loads of work to do and would be dropping out from the thread?? Come on 100.

lol..........look at the time of posting this........on the keyboard at past 4AM......just back to base after driving almost 1000 miles in 22hrs.........plus 4 hrs at the BIP at Heathrow. Whole round trip in the one day. Yes I am busy, but still occasionally chip in.

Oh I forgot, apparently the anti import people also think we are lazy( several private e-mails from what seem like evangelised novices to that effect)........., so I am fat, lazy, exploitative, greedy etc etc............COMMERCIAL (seems to be a powerful expletive in some circles) beekeeper.

Oh and to whoever called my 'rumsfeltitis' post flippant, please read it in context, as a response to a single question in a single post. Jumping in with such a charge ignores all the serious answers I gave throughout the thread, and if we cannot have a modicum of humour around, then , seriously, we all need to get a real life.

 

[RoseCottage]

So I was the person who stated that the suggested Rumsfeldism was too flippant and perhaps I misread the intent...

So I have carried out a little research into the great man and have added a few select words of his to the thread. His input could have been very helpful earlier actually...


I would not say that the future is necessarily less predictable than the past. I think the past was not predictable when it started.

"We do know of certain knowledge that he [Osama Bin Laden] is either in Afghanistan, or in some other country, or dead."

"We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat." –on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."

"Freedom's untidy, and free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things." –on looting in Iraq after the U.S. invasion, adding "stuff happens"

"As you know, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time."

"[Osama Bin Laden is] either alive and well or alive and not too well or not alive."

"I am not going to give you a number for it because it's not my business to do intelligent work." -asked to estimate the number of Iraqi insurgents while testifying before Congress

"I believe what I said yesterday. I don't know what I said, but I know what I think, and, well, I assume it's what I said."

"Needless to say, the President is correct. Whatever it was he said."

"Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know."

"If I said yes, that would then suggest that that might be the only place where it might be done which would not be accurate, necessarily accurate. It might also not be inaccurate, but I'm disinclined to mislead anyone."

"There's another way to phrase that and that is that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. It is basically saying the same thing in a different way. Simply because you do not have evidence that something does exist does not mean that you have evidence that it doesn't exist." -on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction

"Well, um, you know, something's neither good nor bad but thinking makes it so, I suppose, as Shakespeare said."

"Secretary Powell and I agree on every single issue that has ever been before this administration except for those instances where Colin's still learning."

"Learn to say 'I don't know.' If used when appropriate, it will be often."

"I don't know what the facts are but somebody's certainly going to sit down with him and find out what he knows that they may not know, and make sure he knows what they know that he may not know."

"I'm not into this detail stuff. I'm more concepty."


"I don't do quagmires."

"I don't do diplomacy."

"I don't do foreign policy."

"I don't do predictions."

"I don't do numbers."

"I don't do book reviews."

"Now, settle down, settle down. Hell, I'm an old man, it's early in the morning and I'm gathering my thoughts here."

"If I know the answer I'll tell you the answer, and if I don't, I'll just respond, cleverly."

"Oh, Lord. I didn't mean to say anything quotable."

 

[Skyhook]

Oh I forgot, apparently the anti import people also think we are lazy( several private e-mails from what seem like evangelised novices to that effect)........., so I am fat, lazy, exploitative, greedy etc etc............COMMERCIAL (seems to be a powerful expletive in some circles) beekeeper.

Commercial? I thought yours was a national operation... dadn't somebody say that?

I'll get my coat.

 

[Somerford]

100 pages / 1000th poster ?

Well as you can see I was otherwise engaged since last week and have spent the weekend doing other things. I didn't start the thread to make/break records, I started it for the reasons on Post #1 and in many respects not alot has changed since then...but I am pleased the awareness has been raised and more surprisingly the amount of support to do more to prevent imports appears (from the PMs, the voicemails and the 1-1 conversations I have had with beekeepers I have never met before) that is out there.

is this thread over ? maybe...is what motivated the thread over...I don't think so as long as imports continue...

regards

S

 

[RoofTops]

So are you saying that these bees will ultimately revert to Ligustica and AMM the bees that Brother Adam originally crossed to establish the strain.

Buckfast bees are hybrids and require input of new blood from time to time to maintain their qualities. I don't think there is such a a thing as a pure Buckfast. The Buckfast breeders I am aware of in Europe - which is where they all mostly are now - introduce for example a bit Carniolan from time to time and then perhaps something else. Buckfast bees are bred for specific qualities but not all Buckfasts are the same - it depends where you get them from.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Care to comment ILTD?

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=9512&page=3

I only mention it as your name was raised in the thread.

Andy

 

[johna]

Buckfast bees are hybrids and require input of new blood from time to time to maintain their qualities. I don't think there is such a a thing as a pure Buckfast. The Buckfast breeders I am aware of in Europe - which is where they all mostly are now - introduce for example a bit Carniolan from time to time and then perhaps something else. Buckfast bees are bred for specific qualities but not all Buckfasts are the same - it depends where you get them from.

Well explained Rooftops.Buckfasts I have had in the past didn't suit the area I was in (Warwickshire) and seemed more suitable for the heather-peaking late and remaining quite small early on.The queens came direct from Brother Adam.I got on much better with the local mongrels which seemed to develop according to the local forage.(This was all prior to varroa by the way)
Up here in S.W.Scotland we need an early developing bee to take advantage of the Sycamore and OSR.I don't travel to the heather as this is quite a bit north of me-much more suitable for ITLD who I think operates a couple of a hundred miles further up country from me.Carnolians (dirty word here) seem about right for my area.I don't know anyone with pure AMM's near me,but they are all the vogue in central and north Scotland.

 

[Into the lions den]

Care to comment ILTD?

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=9512&page=3

I only mention it as your name was raised in the thread.

Andy

It is all news to me. I am assuming it is their new fruit estate at Highland Park in Kent that is under discussion.

I do know that they have indicated that their pollination provision in many places is sorely deficient, and they are seeking to tidy that up and secure it by working with a smaller number of bee people who can give them what they need, and on some estates take control of this by having their own units in partnership with skilled operators.

Other than having been asked about how they can go about getting enough pollination there (I recommended the national Pollination Scheme for now) I have not had any other input on that location.

A guy with a couple of hives will not scratch the surface of their needs, yet repeatedly they (landowners) come up against territorial attitudes (for many disparate reasons) from smaller beekeepers, when in fact their crop yield and quality can be suffering greatly from lack of adequate bees. (One guy with 6 hives was vehemently against them have even one other beekeeper on their 1200 acres of OSR, and he got extremely stroppy as it was 'his' place and he did not want anyone else there.)

Obviously I do not know the specifics of the relationship between this small beekeeper and the new landowners, but IF he/she was resistant to a large number of extra bees arriving on the same patch then the farmer would possibly take the view that the small beekeeper and any hostility to other bees arriving constituted an obstruction to their freedom to run the farm, or at the very least was a hassle the manager could well do without.

They want to run in partnership with their beekeepers, not to have any kind of adversarial relationship.

From the discussions they had with me, which were not at all formal, a figure of 400 colonies required was mentioned, and ones that can be moved at very short notice too. Co-ordinating such a task over a host of small beekeepers is a mammoth task, and one fraught with all sorts of side issues the managers (who seem pretty overworked anyway) can well do without.

They MAY want to go in with their own bees on this site, but for sure nothing like that has yet been discussed with me.

fwiw, IF it were me, or indeed most commercial guys I know, the couple of hives the small guy had would not be considered a problem, and from OUR perspective their is no need to chuck him off the land. Thus I suspect there may be more to this than initially meets the eye.

Security of tenure is NOT a given in bees, some we win, some we lose, it will always be thus. We are there due to the grace of the farmer/owner, and they DO change their minds and policies from time to time. As a professional I have to accept that and move on. Has happened before and will happen again. C'est la vie. Its not my land.

ps.........when I say 'all news to me' I mean about the guy being ousted. Have never heard anything of that nature.

 

[Into the lions den]

So I have carried out a little research into the great man and have added a few select words of his to the thread. [/I]

An excellent selection! Never knew he had said so many strange things.

 

[propolis]

Buckfast bees are hybrids and require input of new blood from time to time to maintain their qualities. I don't think there is such a a thing as a pure Buckfast. The Buckfast breeders I am aware of in Europe - which is where they all mostly are now - introduce for example a bit Carniolan from time to time and then perhaps something else. Buckfast bees are bred for specific qualities but not all Buckfasts are the same - it depends where you get them from.

Thanks Rooftops an excellent synopsis of the Buckfast bee. Just a pity that the original poster who first mentioned the Buckfast bee in this thread couldn't come up with as an equally convincing explanation himself.

 

[BKF Admin]

I do know that they have indicated that their pollination provision in many places is sorely deficient, and they are seeking to tidy that up and secure it by working with a smaller number of bee people who can give them what they need, and on some estates take control of this by having their own units in partnership with skilled operators.

This is something I have come accross in the past.

You have a farmer with a crop that needs to be pollinated,a local beek puts a couple of hives on and then invites a couple of friends who also put a couple of hives on.

Everything then has to go through the original beek who closes shop to anyone else interested.

The result is 20+ acres of crops needing to be polonated by half a dozen hives that may not of even been worked up ready for the flowering.

The farmer is a business man while the Beekeepers are hobbyists.

The solution for the farmer is simple...

 

[johna]

Thanks Rooftops an excellent synopsis of the Buckfast bee. Just a pity that the original poster who first mentioned the Buckfast bee in this thread couldn't come up with as an equally convincing explanation himself.

I've got better things to do than expanding on my original statement which has now had the support of others.I suggest that you read as many as possible of the well written books on the subject of the Buckfast hybrid bee and its composition,then form your own opinion.Any hybrid has a mix of genes ,some dominant and some recessive - and will revert to one or other parent given time.As Rooftops said ,breeders add a smidgin of this or a smidgin of that to try to retain the characteristics they first found acceptable.

 

[Skyhook]

Buckfast bees are hybrids and require input of new blood from time to time to maintain their qualities. I don't think there is such a a thing as a pure Buckfast. The Buckfast breeders I am aware of in Europe - which is where they all mostly are now - introduce for example a bit Carniolan from time to time and then perhaps something else. Buckfast bees are bred for specific qualities but not all Buckfasts are the same - it depends where you get them from.

Which I believe is why Norton refers to his as 'buckfast type' or 'bred from buckfasts'- he does not claim to be providing bees identical to Brother Adams', just similar.

 

[Norton]

Yes that is correct. As some of the gentic material did not originate from Buckfast I do not think that we can use the name Buckfast. We have addded some of our selected material to the lines so you will find that ours differ from some other "Buckfast" lines. In addition to this as the process of selction is carried out by different breeders with differing goals and perception as to where to take the lines then naturally we have some divergence. Whatever, our lines are selectd and bred according to Buckfast theory, practice and principles and we are very pleased with the results. If any members are ever in Crete or Cyprus they are very welcome to come and see our bees.
Best regards
Norton.

 

[johna]

Yes that is correct. As some of the gentic material did not originate from Buckfast I do not think that we can use the name Buckfast. We have addded some of our selected material to the lines so you will find that ours differ from some other "Buckfast" lines. In addition to this as the process of selction is carried out by different breeders with differing goals and perception as to where to take the lines then naturally we have some divergence. Whatever, our lines are selectd and bred according to Buckfast theory, practice and principles and we are very pleased with the results. If any members are ever in Crete or Cyprus they are very welcome to come and see our bees.
Best regards
Norton.

Is that a summer invite over with our caravan Norton?