Human intervention.

[waverider]

Should we re-queen aggressive colonies?

I understand why the hobby beekeeper would wish to have bee’s with a calm temperament but should we be intervening with nature and bypassing natural selection?

The action of re-queening on the grounds of temperament mainly benefits the beekeeper/neighbours etc and not necessary the colony. Obviously I am excluding re-queening on the grounds of disease.

There are journals the provide evidence for aggressive bee’s having a lesser varroa count. I don’t have enough hives or aggressive colonies to provide any method of research to support this. However a colony of Cornish black bee’s (only 1 colony) in my apiary have notable differences.

The Cornish blacks have a consistently low varroa count. Not once have I fed them over the winter nor have they been plagued by wasps.

This colony appears to forage in weather that keeps the other 11 of my colonies in-doors. Winter stores have been significant for which this may be down to their ‘robbing’ ability’.

The downside is their temperament. Once stung 4 times to the knee when approaching the hive in mid-may. Much following and running when handling frames with a continual bombardment of spitfire nose diving attacks on inspection.

Surely this aggressive colony is a strong colony thus its genetics benefiting the longevity of the bee.

The notion that we should have bee’s with good temperament appears to be solely of benefit to beekeepers.

I know there are many other variables and we intervene with nature by hiving colonies but I was just casting a line out to see what other beekeeper’s thoughts are on this.


Note; I really do not enjoy inspecting this hive. Maybe one of these suits would be adequate.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The notion that we should have bee’s with good temperament appears to be solely of benefit to beekeepers.

Well maybe we should just stop keeping bees altogether.
There is always a balance to be found - sounds to me as if your 'Cornish blacks' are just a nasty bunch of unknown provenance and should be sorted. The only person who dismissed our native bees was brother Adam. people like Manley in their discourses never stated British native bees were extremely agressive. Manley just said they were a bit more exiteable on the comb but perfectly manageable.

 

[Amari]

Should we re-queen aggressive colonies?
I understand why the hobby beekeeper would wish to have bee’s with a calm temperament but should we be intervening with nature and bypassing natural selection?

Ah, but intervening is natural selection! Homo sapiens and Apis mellifera are both products of natural selection and they interact. It just happens Hs are top of the food chain. You wouldn't want to exterminate lions because they prey on Impala would you?

 

[Hachi]

4 stings to the knee and being chased....

Try looking at your hive and thinking I need to inspect and will LIMIT myself to 20 stings before I will call it a day, close up and retreat to be chased over 400 mtrs off the farm..... And it happening everytime I tried to inspect as it did with mine.

Fiesty is one thing but down right evil is another and if you are to manage them you have to get into them.

Taking a honey harvest is intervention!!

Where they were located I also have to consider the health and safety aspects of visitors, the farm staff and its livestock and so having calmer bee's is suited to the holistic environment in which I operate. Nasty aggressive bee's are well suited to the tree tops and so the balance in nature, it can be argued, is maintained.

 

[Heather]

You wouldn't allow a loony human to roam the streets attacking... so why inflict such bee behaviour on neighbours.
Remove queen and replace with efficient queen with kinder qualities.
Bit like life really

If you don't enjoy inspecting a hive.. there is your answer.. just listen to yourself, it ain't a battle- its a hobby, or career.

 

[mbc]

If we all culled queens from aggressive or following colonies, efforts to breed better bees through open mating would have a greater chance of success for all.
Personally, I think keeping aggressive bees going is antisocial to the wider beekeeping community.

 

[HM Honey]

Must admint that I had a couple defensive colonies last year and didnt requeen them. I refuse to call them aggressive, as they are doing no more than defending their home from what they see as a threat. Symantics I know but I like to refer to them as defensive. Anyway, back to the point at hand...

I did contemplate requeening them but I know bees can go from defensive to calm even from the same queen so decided to give them the benefit of the doubt. Both colonies finished the season with nice, calm, almost welcoming bees... That said, if I had a colony that was defensive most or all of the time, I would definately requeen. Dont forget, this is supposed to be fun....

Plus, as mbc points out above, we beeks have enough trouble convincing non beeks that bees arent bad as it is, without said neighbours being stungs to death while sat having a cup of tea on their patio...

 

[mbc]

.

Plus, as mbc points out above, we beeks have enough trouble convincing non beeks that bees arent bad as it is, without said neighbours being stungs to death while sat having a cup of tea on their patio...

Oi, read it again, my concern was for fellow beekeepers and their breeding efforts, not muggles and their sting phobias !

 

[HM Honey]

Oi, read it again, my concern was for fellow beekeepers and their breeding efforts, not muggles and their sting phobias !

misunderstood your point..... but both meanings are still valid...

 

[oliver90owner]

Someof mine are quiet, some a little more feisty. I draw a firm line at following. There again, some will follow a short distance and not attempt to sting, unless further provoked. They are OK in apiaries out in the sticks, but any in the garden have to be both good mannered and not followers. Those that follow and are troublesome are requeened.

 

[mbc]

misunderstood your point..... but both meanings are still valid...

No worries, I'spect the muggles benefit indirectly from better bred queens

 

[busybee53]

A lot of the replies on here are about whether bad tempered bees are good for beekeepers/neighbours etc. As I understand it the OP was asking about if being more defensive is good for the bees.

On the face of it being defensive would be good for a wild colony as they are not going to get bothered by predators or get their honey stolen quite so much as a less defensive colony might. Especially if they live somewhere fairly inaccessible.

However humans live on most of the planet and try to change things to make their own lives easier. This includes destroying other animals.

We buy poison for rats and ants etc and kill animals which compete with us for food. In this country that means slugs and snails, in other countries it is elephant and tiger. We also destroy animals which might hurt us, today gnats but in the past in England wolves.

Therefore defensive bees in the wild could also be setting themselves us as a target. I have certainly heard of places where people set light to wasps nests.

So maybe the bees are better off behaving nicely so that we want them around. We might even take care of them.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

A lot of the replies on here are about whether bad tempered bees are good for beekeepers/neighbours etc. As I understand it the OP was asking about if being more defensive is good for the bees.

On the face of it being defensive would be good for a wild colony as they are not going to get bothered by predators or get their honey stolen quite so much as a less defensive colony might. Especially if they live somewhere fairly inaccessible.

However humans live on most of the planet and try to change things to make their own lives easier. This includes destroying other animals.

We buy poison for rats and ants etc and kill animals which compete with us for food. In this country that means slugs and snails, in other countries it is elephant and tiger. We also destroy animals which might hurt us, today gnats but in the past in England wolves.

Therefore defensive bees in the wild could also be setting themselves us as a target. I have certainly heard of places where people set light to wasps nests.

So maybe the bees are better off behaving nicely so that we want them around. We might even take care of them.

Coincidentally I watched "more than honey" last night. It was interesting that South American keepers have learned to cope with and become keepers of Africanised bees and one narrator considered they coped well with varroa such that they may be the way forward. Defensive bees - do we know what really defensive bees are in the UK?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Coincidentally I watched "more than honey" last night. It was interesting that South American keepers have learned to cope with and become keepers of Africanised bees and one narrator considered they coped well with varroa such that they may be the way forward. Defensive bees - do we know what really defensive bees are in the UK?

I'll let you know in a few weeks time

 

[drex]

Thought I had had nasty colonies before until last year when one colony was the hive from hell. Such a pain I did not inspect very often, as it was no fun. Eventually they started to make a nuisance of themselves to other plot holders on the allotment. 3 layers of clothes on to requeen and still got 30+ stings. Aggressive colonies are not fun!!!!!.
I later found they had swarmed into an old warre at the back of the barn. That lot got petrol.

 

[bontbee]

I accept that defensive bees are not entirely pleasant to work with, (though a good stinging can be quite thrilling - excepting the fate of the brave little defenders, of course), but I wouldn't put the beekeeper's comfort at the top of the list.

I fully accept the arguments for not keeping defensive bees where non-beeks/beginner beeks etc etc are going to be in the firing line (the resulting fall out and bad publicity wouldn't be at all good).

But, I can't help wondering what genes might be being defended by these bees. Sorry, mbc, but I don't think I would go along with a utopia of calm "well behaved" bees everywhere. As is our wont, we destroy before we know what we are destroying. I suspect defensive colonies were probably very successful before we appeared on the scene, started shoving them into all sorts of containers and insisted that they calmed down.

I would like to add, in my own defence, )) that I haven't got to grips with bee genetics, so I could well be talking out of my hat again. Maybe defensiveness confers some disadvantage which compromises the benefit of their protective abilities. However, (and I was told never to start a sentence with however.....) there still are a few defensive colonies out there, despite our selection for nice girls! At least, there were loads when I first started beekeeping. lol

Does anyone have any info re the defensiveness of wild colonies, pre varroa? Perhaps in the good ol days, there were so many bees about, generally speaking, the stroppy ones got left alone!!

Just my thoughts - bring on the flames!



OOoh, can anyone help - suddenly my pc has gone all stroppy and instead of scrolling up and down the page with the mouse wheel, it's scrolling in and out....help....

 

[Roola]

I'm in a similar boat with one of my colonies. Last year they were fantastic honey producers, not only drawing 3 supers comb but also giving 70lb of honey... they did however turn rather aggressive at the end of the year, opening them up wasn't pleasant with them attacking my hands anywhere near the frames. If they are a little calmer I am loathed to requeen because of the positives, in fact i'd been considering making up some nucs from this colony to continue the genetics. Crossing my fingers they have chilled a bit over the winter! Out of interest, if I were to make some nucs up from this colony and get them to make new queens, would these bees also retain the 'aggressive' streak or could the current colony just be grumpy because the queen is getting on a bit? this will be her 3rd season.

 

[bontbee]

Hi Roola,

It may have been the time of year that was the reason your bees became a little less tolerant of you. Getting towards winter, the foraging season ending.......

They "know" that they can't make good any shortfall, so they can become protective of their stores.

Re the genetics, I don't think anyone could predict whether her daughters would be as "aggressive" (I prefer defensive, but that's just my peccadillo). They will be mating, presumably, with drones from wherever.

Making up nucs is fun, and a good way to see what variations arise from one queen's offspring and their matings, but I don't think that there are any guarantees regarding manners - either good or bad!

 

[Amari]

Thought I had had nasty colonies before until last year when one colony was the hive from hell. Such a pain I did not inspect very often, as it was no fun. Eventually they started to make a nuisance of themselves to other plot holders on the allotment. 3 layers of clothes on to requeen and still got 30+ stings. Aggressive colonies are not fun!!!!!.
I later found they had swarmed into an old warre at the back of the barn. That lot got petrol.

About 10 years ago, shortly after moving my beekeeping (tho' not the bees) from Cheshire to Suffolk, all my five colonies became really aggressive week after week and they were in a neighbour's garden. In desperation I sought advice from the local BKA and two senior members kindly visited. Well, you can guess the outcome: all five hives were as sweet as pie and remained so thereafter.

 

[Torq]

Isn't it possible for a queen to produce both aggressive and non aggressive workers at the same time? Is it really the queen that is responsible for aggression or is it the boys she was hanging out with when she was young! Good college boy drones or bad leather jacket wearing hoodlums!

It is possible to see the effects of the different sperm donors in a colony. One of mine had half and half fully black bees and bees with a yellow abdomen band. I guess I should have checked which was stinging me!