how many of these label are illegal

[enrico]

Enrico, it does LOOK very nice indeed, but there are two details that a nit-picking jobsworth MIGHT get fussed over.

It looks as though the weight is stated as "454 gms" but I believe it should just say "454g" (gms isn't the proper designation of the unit) -- however I refuse to believe anyone is really going to fuss over how big your typeface makes the space between the number and the letter…

And particularly since the Best Before is doubling as the Lot ID, I understand that the date needs to be absolutely crystal clear and "02/08/17" could potentially mean different things to different folks, whereas "O2 Aug 2017" is unambiguous.

Thanks itma.....really useful info and they will be changed....thanks
E

 

[sussexbaker]

Hallucinogenic nectar as a constituent could open up a whole new market
Off the radar of course

Interestingly enough I'd never heard the term "Honey oil" until recently watching an episode of Trailer Park Boys. Nothing to do with honey though!

 

[Edwardking]

Enrico, it does LOOK very nice indeed, but there are two details that a nit-picking jobsworth MIGHT get fussed over.

It looks as though the weight is stated as "454 gms" but I believe it should just say "454g" (gms isn't the proper designation of the unit) -- however I refuse to believe anyone is really going to fuss over how big your typeface makes the space between the number and the letter…

And particularly since the Best Before is doubling as the Lot ID, I understand that the date needs to be absolutely crystal clear and "02/08/17" could potentially mean different things to different folks, whereas "O2 Aug 2017" is unambiguous.

ITMA, I agree. Better to get it right first time than have to reprint later. One question - the BBKA guidelines say there must be one type space between the quantity and the units - 454 g, not 454g. This is not very widely known, nor followed. Is it correct to do this?

 

[Swarm]

If unsure, why not just phone trading standards and have them come around and give you chapter and verse? Get it straight from the horses mouth rather than guess work on a forum. Each answer so far has been questioned, lol

 

[itma]

One question - the BBKA guidelines say there must be one type space between the quantity and the units - 454 g, not 454g. This is not very widely known, nor followed. Is it correct to do this?

This is not specific to honey.
It is general "Weights & Measures" stuff - and I think you can safely be guided by the contents of your larder.
Take a look!



As indicated above, typographically it is a nonsense to talk about "one type space" - would that be an em space or an en space? Or a "thin space" or what? "One type space" is only meaningful on a mono-spaced font (or an old typewriter - daisy wheels usually do proportional spacing). And then we come to kerning - would that be illegal?
Just as long as what you have is factually correct, easy to read and not trying to take the mickey*, I can't see this as being a problem.

You might be interested to check out Unicode characters 2000 to 200B inclusive.
* Claiming to be deliberately using Unicode character 200B might IMHO be taking the typographic mickey - it is a "zero-width space" …

 

[itma]

If unsure, why not just phone trading standards and have them come around and give you chapter and verse? Get it straight from the horses mouth rather than guess work on a forum. Each answer so far has been questioned, lol

Strangely enough, different departments web documents indicate different misunderstandings.

However, as long as you can show which law you are following (without trying to teach the man his job) you shouldn't have any trouble.

Hence the importance of having links to the relevant law.

 

[itma]

Just checked th regs. and if you only sell direct to the public (i.e. not supply a retailer) lot number is not mandatory

That's what the BBKA say, but I haven't found it in any "regs".

Please, WHERE have you found that?

 

[enrico]

When I was looking it up, the only thing I found is that a full date negated the need for a lot number but I have no idea where I found that info. That is why I put the full date..... But obviously the month spelled out is a common sense idea
E

 

[Edwardking]

That's what the BBKA say, but I haven't found it in any "regs".

Please, WHERE have you found that?

I found it!
http://www.-------------/local/northstaffordshire/bm~doc/tradingstandards-honey-2.pdf
It's on www.bbka/. Then proceed as above

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

That's what the BBKA say, but I haven't found it in any "regs".

Please, WHERE have you found that?

Gloucester trading standards

http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/glos/bus1item.cgi?file=*BADV091-1001.txt#tsi4

However there is no mention of lot/batch numbers in the food labelling regulations

 

[Swarm]

Lot numbers would only be required if you produced more than one batch of honey.

 

[itma]

I found it!
http://www.-------------/local/northstaffordshire/bm~doc/tradingstandards-honey-2.pdf
It's on www.bbka/. Then proceed as above

Yes, and as I've said in this thread, I believe they have got it wrong.

There IS a possible exemption from the "Country of Origin" labelling for direct sales - which the BBKA don't mention.

Gloucester trading standards

http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/glos/bus1item.cgi?file=*BADV091-1001.txt#tsi4

However there is no mention of lot/batch numbers in the food labelling regulations

A 'guidance' document on a website isn't the actual law. It is what they think it says.
I also notice that Gloucestershire TS insist that "Country of Origin" is required. Which we have the law references that dispute whether it is required. /// See my Addendum
I'm suggesting that they have it wrong - on two counts (almost as though they - or the BBKA - had copied the other!)

And I'll hold to that view until anyone can give me a reference to the law (EU Directive, Statute, SI, or case law) that says Lot ID is not required for direct sales.

I've given a reference to the wide-ranging EU Directive that says it IS needed ("A foodstuff may not be marketed unless it is accompanied by an indication as referred to in Article 1(1).") and none of the exemptions listed in Para 2 apply, so where is the exemption?



/// Addendum - the Food Standards Agency refer to the actual laws in their "guidance" - what a pity Gloucestershire don't!

The term “prepacked for direct sale” is defined in the FLR as a food that is prepacked by a retailer for sale by him or her on the premises where the food is packed, or from a vehicle or stall used by him or her.
Products which fall within this category will be subject to certain exemptions by virtue of Regulation 23 of the FLR. This applies to honey harvested at home and sold at the home, farmgate or in market stalls. Regulation 4(1) of the Honey Regulations requires certain additional labelling information such as an origin declaration to be given on specified honey products. It does provide that this is without prejudice to the generality of Part II of the Food Labelling Regulations 1996, which means that the general provisions in that part of the 1996 Regulations continue to apply. Part II of the 1996 Regulations through the application of regulation 23 provides that certain products which are prepacked for direct sale are exempt from the majority of the labelling requirements specified in Regulation 5 of the FLR, with certain specified exceptions. Since country of origin labelling is part of Regulation 5 (by way of Regulation 5(f) which is implemented via the 1998 amendment to the FLR), it is the Agency’s opinion that honey prepacked for direct sale may be exempt from the origin labelling requirements of the Honey Regulations.

However, for clarity, I myself think that it is simplest to put the Country of Origin on the label so that it could be used for indirect (shop) sales - whether or not it might be strictly required for Direct Sales.

 

[Swarm]

In that case, contact them and point out their errors

 

[itma]

In that case, contact them and point out their errors

Gloucestershire can look after itself …
… but I did try to find out who to contact at the BBKA and its been "someone else" … but I will try again.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Life's too short for all this nonsense

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Food labelling regulations 1996 reg. 23

'This regulation applies to—

(a)food which is— .
(i)not prepacked, or .
(ii)prepacked for direct sale,'

specifically para 2


Subject to paragraph (3) of this regulation, food to which this regulation applies need not be marked or labelled with any of the particulars specified in regulation 5 except—

(a)the name of the food; and .
(b)in the case of milk, the particulars required by regulation 5(f)


regulation 5 reads:
'Subject to the following provisions of this Part of these Regulations, all food to which this Part of these Regulations applies shall be marked or labelled with—

(a)the name of the food; .
(b)a list of ingredients; .
(c)the appropriate durability indication; .
(d)any special storage conditions or conditions of use; .
(e)the name or business name and an address or registered office of either or both of— .
(i)the manufacturer or packer, or .
(ii)a seller established within the European Community; .
(f)particulars of the place of origin or provenance of the food if failure to give such particulars might mislead a purchaser to a material degree as to the true origin or provenance of the food; and .
(g)instructions for use if it would be difficult to make appropriate use of the food in the absence of such instructions.'

Nowhere does it require a trader to supply a lot number therefore must be a 'local' interpretation thus (in your view) not worth the paper it's written on.

Frther clarification is given by the Food Standards Agency so although not legislation will hold true in a court of law:
'
The term “prepacked for direct sale” is defined in the FLR as a food that is
prepacked by a retailer for sale by him or her on the premises where the food
is packed, or from a vehicle or stall used by him or her.
Products which fall within this category will be subject to certain exemptions
by virtue of Regulation 23 of the FLR. This applies to honey harvested at
home and sold at the home, farmgate or in market stalls. Regulation 4(1) of
the Honey Regulations requires certain additional labelling information such
as an origin declaration to be given on specified honey products. It does
provide that this is without prejudice to the generality of Part II of the Food
Labelling Regulations 1996, which means that the general provisions in that
part of the 1996 Regulations continue to apply. Part II of the 1996
Regulations through the application of regulation 23 provides that certain
products which are prepacked for direct sale are exempt from the majority of
the labelling requirements specified in Regulation 5 of the FLR, with certain
specified exceptions. Since country of origin labelling is part of Regulation 5
(by way of Regulation 5(f) which is implemented via the 1998 amendment to
the FLR), it is the Agency’s opinion that honey prepacked for direct sale may
be exempt from the origin labelling requirements of the Honey Regulations. It
should be noted though that this exemption would only apply for honey that is
prepacked for direct sale. Honey sold other than prepacked for direct sale
must be labelled with its country of origin in accordance with the Honey
Regulations.'

and as far as Best before dates are concerned Regulation 20(2) (c) :


'in the case of a food which can reasonably be expected to retain its specific properties for more than 18 months it may be expressed either in terms of a month and year only or in terms of a year only, if (in either case) the words “best before” are replaced by the words “best before end”.'

Good enough or shall I ask Dave to put a post on here?

Which is where the BBka stumbled on the best before date - even though an exemptin is inferred by 23 (2) there is an overriding EC regulation which says we must have a BBE date

 

[itma]

… even though an exemptin is inferred by 23 (2) there is an overriding EC regulation which says we must have a BBE date

Well, overriding Directive 2011/91/EU says we need a lot number (and that an appropriately structured indication of durability would suffice), with no evident Direct Sale exemption.


Just in case anyone still has any remaining will to live, there's new EU food labelling legislation coming into force on 13th December this year.
Regulation 1169/2011 changes some things.
I gather that the durability indication will no longer need to be in the same field of view as the food name ( ___ Honey) and the weight, and there is something about minimum font sizes (x-height greater than 1.2mm) for all the statutory info (not just the weight) … and I haven't yet found anything that would exempt us from the 'nutritional' labelling requirements… or anything like a direct sales qualification of the country of origin requirements …
We are just FBOs.


It might be getting simpler or more complicated.
But for now, my enthusiasm for discovering the legal basis for the jobsworths' requirements is close to exhaustion.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

But the directive does not apply to goods ' prepackaged for immediate sale' (direct sales) but then you have already decided what you think is right so no amount of evidence is going to sway you on this one.
As i said life's too short

 

[Swarm]

But the directive does not apply to goods ' prepackaged for immediate sale' (direct sales) but then you have already decided what you think is right so no amount of evidence is going to sway you on this one.
As i said life's too short

Quite right.

 

[itma]

But the directive does not apply to goods ' prepackaged for immediate sale' (direct sales) …

I think you are reading more into the word "immediate" than the concept of "without delay".

By "Direct sales" we are talking about any sale from producer straight to the consumer, without any middlemen. It doesn't strike me that is what is being spelled out in this exemption from lot numbering.
Rather, it seems to me that that exemption is about there never really being any "lot" because of the circumstances of the prepacking.

The Directive says Lot numbering isn't required

(b) when, at the point of sale to the ultimate consumer, the foodstuffs are not prepackaged, are packaged at the request of the purchaser or are prepackaged for immediate sale;

I simply do not read that as exempting the batch you jarred up the night before, let alone last week or last month.
It is about no need for a lot number when the foodstuffs are being "prepackaged" only immediately before "the point of sale", not packaged at all, or only packaged at customer request.

I reckon this exemption covers takeaway food, for example, not needing a lot number.
Not all producer/consumer sales.


However, if the concept of Lot numbering is anathema to you, but you are happy to put a BBE date on your jars, you can cover yourself by ensuring that the BBE format would do duty as a lot number