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[REDWOOD]

Oh, this old chestnut! I won't be burning any books, I love them too much, but then I've read enough to know not to use matchsticks.

I'm glad you read the right books

 

[MerryBee]

AS a new beekeeper I am fascinated by this "heated" (gettit?) debate on insulation ventilation and use of stores, and I am all in favour of an evidence-based approach.

So, DerekM, can you please elaborate on this statement "The studies of insulation plus bottom entrance show considerably less stores consumed ". Please point me to the studies.

 

[oliver90owner]

My queens usually finish laying middle to end of october and don't start up again until late January

A trait of your particular gene line I would suggest, not necessarily a function of the hive insulation. Your part of the Uk, wherever that may be, could be a contributory factor. That might mean available forage as part of the equation. I can guess that you do not regularly import queens from far afield places.

Over the years my queens have stopped laying by mid October, or not stopped brooding throughout the winter months, albeit at a low rate. Those were all in timber hives and not particularly heavily insulated.

I put it down to the weather at the time. Since long ago, I don't check for brood during late autumn and throughout the coldest winter months - in fact, I don't check at all during the late autumn/winter unless there is a compelling reason for doing so. I reckon they are best left alone, in peace, if at all possible during that time.

 

[user 6228]

AS a new beekeeper I am fascinated by this "heated" (gettit?) debate on insulation ventilation and use of stores, and I am all in favour of an evidence-based approach.

So, DerekM, can you please elaborate on this statement "The studies of insulation plus bottom entrance show considerably less stores consumed ". Please point me to the studies.

Villumstad, E. (1974). Importance of hive insulation for wintering, development and honey yield in Norway. Apiacta 9, 116-118

 

[MuswellMetro]

Villumstad, E. (1974). Importance of hive insulation for wintering, development and honey yield in Norway. Apiacta 9, 116-118

it is Apiacta 3 not Apiacta 9

 

[MerryBee]

Insulation

Thanks DerekM and Muswellmetro for the reference. Having read the paper I remain unconvinced.
Why? The research was carried out in Norway in the 1950s . How relevant are the results to modern hives in a British climate?
What were the weather conditions ? They don't say.
How many hives did they use? They don't say.
They did find a smaller decrease in weight over the winter in better insulated hives, but were the results statistically significant? They don't say.

I could go on.

Now I am not saying they are wrong, but this paper does not provide convincing evidence of the benefits of insulation.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Damn, I seem to have run out of popcorn!

 

[user 6228]

Thanks DerekM and Muswellmetro for the reference. Having read the paper I remain unconvinced.
Why? The research was carried out in Norway in the 1950s . How relevant are the results to modern hives in a British climate?
What were the weather conditions ? They don't say.
How many hives did they use? They don't say.
They did find a smaller decrease in weight over the winter in better insulated hives, but were the results statistically significant? They don't say.

I could go on.

Now I am not saying they are wrong, but this paper does not provide convincing evidence of the benefits of insulation.

reread the paper ...
It's the only study that bothered to measure the thermal conductivity(and method of measurement) so you can relate it to any hive. Norwegian weather is like their mountain s a bit like Scotland but tougher.
They give the location and dates so the weather could be looked up. Quantities of colonies are given at the top of the last page. They do indicate significance in the tables 2 & 3

 

[MuswellMetro]

Don't shoot the messenger , i am only posting links and pdf LOL

here is another more modern paper but my subscription has run out so cannot link

Dodologlu, A., C. Dulger and F. Gene, 2004. Colony condition and bee behavior in honey bees (Apis melliferaL.) housed in wooden or polystyrene hives

Anecdotaly. it works for me , that's all i will say other than that I have had no winter losses except DLQs on my hives in the last five years, othersin the same area have had losses of upto 50%

 

[oliver90owner]

It is difficult to convince some that all the heat produced in winter, in the hive is lost. Yes, every last bit of it. Happens in summer, too, of course but without the same consequences.

We can assume that every Joule of thermal energy generated throughout the winter months when the bees are clustered is derived from their stores. From nowhere else, unless there is a mouse snoozing somewhere in there (and that will be living on wax and honey)!

Can it be so difficult to accept that a better thermally insulated hive will require less thermal energy than a similar less well-insulated one standing next to it with identical prevailing weather conditions?

The only real question then is which is cheaper - sugar or insulation.

No contest really?

Pleeeese, Merrybee, think simply about it. No need to go on any more at all. Plain common sense is enough to arrive at the correct conclusion.

Would you remove all the insulation from your house roof, unfill the wall cavities, replace all double glazing with single panes, remove any draught excluding material and positively leave windows ajar all through the winter and expect the heating bill to remain the same? I think not.

Your house also loses exactly 100% of all the heating applied throughout the winter, just the same as the bees' home does. All simple physics.

RAB

 

[BeeJayBee]

The research was carried out in Norway in the 1950s . How relevant are the results to modern hives in a British climate?

How many British beekeepers use hives that were made pre-1950s?

 

[user 6228]

How many British beekeepers use hives that were made pre-1950s?

i think most of them use pre-1950 designs

 

[user 6228]

Don't shoot the messenger , i am only posting links and pdf LOL

here is another more modern paper but my subscription has run out so cannot link

Dodologlu, A., C. Dulger and F. Gene, 2004. Colony condition and bee behavior in honey bees (Apis melliferaL.) housed in wooden or polystyrene hives

Anecdotaly. it works for me , that's all i will say other than that I have had no winter losses except DLQs on my hives in the last five years, othersin the same area have had losses of upto 50%

forget that paper they have top vents in the poly hives

 

[MuswellMetro]

i think most of them use pre-1950 designs

yes the National was specified to BS1300 in 1947 and modified under the same BS number in 1960 that reduced its insulation qualities compared to 1947, the only changes in hive sold nowis that some due to metriifaction in 1971 or using imported cedar wood now use the thinner 18mm planks rather than specified 19mm (3/4") ( Sorry not a pedant just revising History of Beekeeping UK for Module 8 LOL)

 

[user 6228]

It is difficult to convince some that all the heat produced in winter, in the hive is lost. Yes, every last bit of it. Happens in summer, too, of course but without the same consequences.... All simple physics.

RAB

All simple physics but a hard sell against massive group think, based on lore and misunderstood research. You really should come to one of the lectures ... question time goes on for hours and all the old gems come out. Its quite a challenge countering them all patiently, diplomatically, simply, concisely, convincingly when it seems blindingly obvious to ones self.

 

[MerryBee]

reread the paper ...
It's the only study that bothered to measure the thermal conductivity(and method of measurement) so you can relate it to any hive. Norwegian weather is like their mountain s a bit like Scotland but tougher.
They give the location and dates so the weather could be looked up. Quantities of colonies are given at the top of the last page. They do indicate significance in the tables 2 & 3

Derek M
Maybe you should reread the paper.
You say "They give the location and dates so the weather could be looked up" I cant see where they do that. You say " Quantities of colonies are given at the top of the last page". This relates to a different experiment, not the one which found lower use of winter stores. You say "They do indicate significance in the tables 2 & 3 ". Again this relates to a different experiment, not the one which found lower use of winter stores.

 

[MerryBee]

It is difficult to convince some that all the heat produced in winter, in the hive is lost. Yes, every last bit of it. Happens in summer, too, of course but without the same consequences.

We can assume that every Joule of thermal energy generated throughout the winter months when the bees are clustered is derived from their stores. From nowhere else, unless there is a mouse snoozing somewhere in there (and that will be living on wax and honey)!

Can it be so difficult to accept that a better thermally insulated hive will require less thermal energy than a similar less well-insulated one standing next to it with identical prevailing weather conditions?

The only real question then is which is cheaper - sugar or insulation.

No contest really?

Pleeeese, Merrybee, think simply about it. No need to go on any more at all. Plain common sense is enough to arrive at the correct conclusion.

Would you remove all the insulation from your house roof, unfill the wall cavities, replace all double glazing with single panes, remove any draught excluding material and positively leave windows ajar all through the winter and expect the heating bill to remain the same? I think not.

Your house also loses exactly 100% of all the heating applied throughout the winter, just the same as the bees' home does. All simple physics.

RAB

If as masterBK has suggested "when you insulate them will they brood more and for longer during winter and if so will they then eat more stores? "
then the situation may not be quite as simple as you suggest.

I am definitely not saying that insulation is a bad idea. I am not suffering from "massive group think, based on lore and misunderstood research". I haven't been a beekeeper long enough to be in either camp . In fact I think the arguments for improving insulation are pretty persuasive. Given the strong views there are on the subject its just surprising that the research EVIDENCE for it doesnt seem so easy to find. And I mean evidence rather than shouted anecdote.

 

[Itchy]

I can vouch for Derek M's talk on insulation. There was a rumble from the Old Timers department, but all made perfect sense. ....... Just wish I could afford all the Kingspan.

 

[user 6228]

Derek M
Maybe you should reread the paper.
You say "They give the location and dates so the weather could be looked up" I cant see where they do that. You say " Quantities of colonies are given at the top of the last page". This relates to a different experiment, not the one which found lower use of winter stores. You say "They do indicate significance in the tables 2 & 3 ". Again this relates to a different experiment, not the one which found lower use of winter stores.

i did note that but the other benefits tables 2 &3 have that additional rigour.
As RAB pointed out these omissions of documentation of rigour related to table 1`are counterweighted by the cannons of thermodynamics. Such an experiment in basic calorimetry, unlike animal behaviour, does not need statistical sophistication to be convincing. if you want confirmation in significant numbers(1000s) in uk weather in uk hives ask Murray McGregor.

lets do a thought experiment. I place the bees in a well insulated container with a level of insulation well beyond what a bee cluster can achieve.
If the bees want use the same energy as before that will raise the temperature inside dramitically (nobody hears fanning in the depth of winter) but because the box is so well insulated the temperature to lose the heat would be so high it would kill the bees.
So the bees have a choice consume more stores and die or consume less and live
the bees chose to live instead and consume less energy.


so if the bees dont fan frantically and still live thats the proof


the box thats my avatar has an insulation level 5 times greater than wooden national. if bees didnt reduce their energy output and stores consumption that box would kill a bee colony if the outside temperature went above -5C unless it fanned frantically. They don't fan unless they are ripening and they live

 

[MuswellMetro]

is it only the uk that 80% of beekeepers vent their crown boards, just looking around at hive design and the french seem to be solid crownboards like ours were before 1947

http://www.icko-apiculture.com/fr/r...-cadres/rucheco-dadant-10-cadres-hoffman.html (see photo in Headlines cds rucheco dadant 10)

are there any translation of common beekeeping practicses in EU for over wintering Bees by those more linguistic than I?