First mistake of 2018 -- and a big one

[ShinySideUp]

In my head it goes like this:

I have a nadir to remove from beneath my 14 x 12 brood box so that I go into the spring with everything standard. I wait for a cold day, the cluster is tightly packed in the upper half of the brood box leaving the nadir empty. Put new stand out, lever off the brood box, move it quickly to new stand. Remove old stand and nadir. Go about business with a job well done.

How it actually goes:

It is cold so I put out new stand next to old one. Lever up brood box. Lift it up and place on to new stand leaving empty nadir in place. Suitably lifted and placed. Looked at nadir -- full of freakin' bees! I have split the cluster! Don't panic, just replace the brood box on top of the old nadir. Did that. New stand with OMF is covered in bees that fell out of the brood box -- oh shite. Pick up OMF and place in front of entrance to hive and try to shake bees off so that they can climb back into the old hive. They die, 200 ish bees die in seconds in the cold. Got a couple back in by hand but the damage is done. I have interfered and achieved nothing at all.

Lesson learned. When I want to get the nadir out I shall wait until a lovely warm day, probably in April and do it under more control. I can only hope that none of the dead bees was the queen and that I didn't squash her when I replaced the brood box in it's original position.

I now know how I should go about it so any coulda/woulda/shoulda remarks won't help. I post this for other new beeks to learn from before they make the same or similar mistakes.

Of course the biggest mistake was last year when I treated for varroa with a super on and couldn't use the honey and so left it for the bees for the winter. Another mistake I won't make again.

The only good thing that has come out of this debacle is that I know there are about 20 - 30kg of stores in the brood box as it was a devil to lift.

The really stupid thing is that I asked for advice on this very matter late last year and the general concensus was that I should leave it until April, I even agreed that this was the right course of action then suddenly I get this idea in my head.

 

[Etton]

Good advice. I also have nadired supers and your message reinforces the need for warm weather when bees can fly. Would it be worth in April putting a QE between the nadired super and B.B. to spot where the Q is? Just in case she is laying in the nadired emperor.

 

[Hachi]

The really stupid thing is that I asked for advice on this very matter late last year and the general concensus was that I should leave it until April,

Out of the mouth of babes

 

[pargyle]

I should leave it until April, I even agreed that this was the right course of action then suddenly I get this idea in my head.

Seemed like a good idea at the time ...one for the beekeeping confessional - we've all got something we'd prefer to forget !

Mine this year was putting another super on a hive when they were storing honey like it was going out of fashion - a week later I couldn't undertstand why the flow on that hive had come to a complete standstill - until I realised that there was one of Paynes flimsy crownboards stuck to the bottom of the super and I hadn't noticed it in my haste to catch the flow ! You cannot imagine the amount of brace comb that they had built in the super below it and had filled it ...

 

[ShinySideUp]

Good advice. I also have nadired supers and your message reinforces the need for warm weather when bees can fly. Would it be worth in April putting a QE between the nadired super and B.B. to spot where the Q is? Just in case she is laying in the nadired emperor.

I don't want to trap drones. Come April I shall swap the brood box and nadir over and have a good look through the whole lot to find the queen (assuming I haven't killed her with my latest boo boo.

 

[Hachi]

I don't want to trap drones. Come April I shall swap the brood box and nadir over and have a good look through the whole lot to find the queen (assuming I haven't killed her with my latest boo boo.

I'd have a peek now after all, what harm could it do?

 

[Wingy]

I'd have a peek now after all, what harm could it do?

End up killing more bees & possibly the Q.
At the minute things may be ok or they may not (Q could be dead) if the latter what can you do about it now? Probably not a lot.
My guess is the Q would have been somewhere near the middle of the cluster and will be ok. Why take a chance on making it not ok.
I'd leave until the weather warms up and the bees come out. Then you can do a proper inspection taking your time and deal with any issues then. Just my thoughts as a novice but fingers crossed for you that everything is ok. Please keep us updated
Wingy

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I'd have a peek now after all, what harm could it do?

Are you for real?

 

[enrico]

Been there and done that.....I used to advise removing in winter. Now I advise slipping a queen excluder between the box's in spring. Wait four days and see where the eggs are. If in the BB then put super over queen excluder and let any brood emerge, usually little drone brood to worry about. If queen is in super then find her and slip her into BB and repeat as above. Works every time.
I find the cluster in winter nearly always sits between the two box's.
Thanks for sharing though, it is how we all learn.
Or of course leave them on a brood and a half.
E

 

[Poly Hive]

The lesson here and I imply no personal criticism is this.

IMPATIENCE

Which is truly the curse of the beginners.

If you even have a qualm about what you are proposing to do DON'T and consult someone with more experience, even if it exposes you to the forum ars*h**s.

PH

 

[For want of a better word]

I'd have a peek now after all, what harm could it do?

Curiosity killed....

My Grandfather said feed and close down the hives by 5th November and leave well alone until St David's Day.

He passed on 43 years ago...... before we imported Varroa

Yeghes da

 

[olriley]

Wingy and others speaking sense here to me. Well done posting OP, takes some mettle to do that!

 

[Millet]

Been there and done that.....I used to advise removing in winter. Now I advise slipping a queen excluder between the box's in spring. Wait four days and see where the eggs are. If in the BB then put super over queen excluder and let any brood emerge, usually little drone brood to worry about. If queen is in super then find her and slip her into BB and repeat as above. Works every time.
I find the cluster in winter nearly always sits between the two box's.
Thanks for sharing though, it is how we all learn.
Or of course leave them on a brood and a half.
E

I have one on brood + half that will need to be on double brood at some point however i am in no rush to start pulling the hive to bits, that will not be done till the back end of April weather dependent.

 

[colinc]

Thanks for posting. This is how the inexperienced become experienced without having to make all the same mistakes.
Like you said you made a decision on autopilot and as soon as you did it you knew you were wrong to do so. That’s the way it goes and most would keep quiet. I am sure you would see the queen if she was there with the dead bees and more likely she was buried right in the centre of the cluster when your 200 dropped away. Hope they are ok.
I nadired last year with brood and a half and had similar stresses over sorting them out in spring so went double brood and will stick with that so long as the bees need it.

I see solid reason behind explaining what happened to you to help others out. Good on you


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[Wingy]

Not that it would help now but a tip for how I keep a check on my girls without disturbing them (and would have helped here). My hive is on a stand so I just place a mirror underneath, shine a torch on it and can clearly see the cluster of bees going about their business all well so far. Ok I can't see how many stores there are from this angle but gives a good idea of the state of the colony (OMF) of course
Wingy

 

[Millet]

Not that it would help now but a tip for how I keep a check on my girls without disturbing them (and would have helped here). My hive is on a stand so I just place a mirror underneath, shine a torch on it and can clearly see the cluster of bees going about their business all well so far. Ok I can't see how many stores there are from this angle but gives a good idea of the state of the colony (OMF) of course
Wingy

Here is my Tip.. i weigh them weekly and never ever crack the crown board of at this time of the year let alone splitting the boxes, even in my first season i knew to leave well alone , it has worked for me so far.

 

[Beefriendly]

In my head it goes like this:.

The only mistake you made was not checking that the cluster was extended between your bottom box and top box before moving the top box.
I had to do a similar maneuver on a double brood today as a mouse was in residence in lower box. Split brood boxes by lifting and checking no bees or part of cluster in bottom box. If the cluster had been split between the two I would just have put things back and waited....
No bees in lower brood so moved top brood onto new floor. Job done not a flyer in sight.

Mouse wasn't happy at untimely eviction...and his day just got worse as cat was with me and did what cats do!

 

[Millet]

The only mistake you made was not checking that the cluster was extended between your bottom box and top box before moving the top box.
I had to do a similar maneuver on a double brood today as a mouse was in residence in lower box. Split brood boxes by lifting and checking no bees or part of cluster in bottom box. If the cluster had been split between the two I would just have put things back and waited....
No bees in lower brood so moved top brood onto new floor. Job done not a flyer in sight.

Mouse wasn't happy at untimely eviction...and his day just got worse as cat was with me and did what cats do!

Good owld Felix ..

 

[Wingy]

Here is my Tip.. i weigh them weekly and never ever crack the crown board of at this time of the year let alone splitting the boxes, even in my first season i knew to leave well alone , it has worked for me so far.

That's where I plan to be next season. I didn't plan on getting my bees until spring / summer 2018 but a swarm found me last summer. At present in a home made nuc with insulation. Caught on the back foot when I started I didn't know about weighing and don't have a clue what my nuc weighs empty, how heavy with frames & bees or how heavy it should be with enough stores or not. It's fun learning

 

[ShinySideUp]

The lesson here and I imply no personal criticism is this.

IMPATIENCE

Which is truly the curse of the beginners.

If you even have a qualm about what you are proposing to do DON'T and consult someone with more experience, even if it exposes you to the forum ars*h**s.

PH

Agree absolutely. Unfortunatley as I mentioned above, I did actually consult and agreed a plan which for some reason I then decided to ignore.

I shall be doing nothing with the bees now until April or the end of March if the weather picks up (it's much warmer, earlier, here in Cornwall). They will have enough food (see previous post) and I can't do anything if the queen has gone (although I think it unlikely).

Might slip some fondant in during March just in case but I don't need to open up for that.