Charged queen cells but can't spot the queen

[Ginger19]

This is a swarm I caught last year, and they are ready for off again. The problem is I have never been able to spot the queen have had 2 other beeks look with me in the past and she is proving very elusive. I did see her for the first time last Sunday, looked down to grab my "crown of thorns" and she had gone - felt like a right DkHd.
Anyway had a look in today and there are 3 charged queen cells, it's a bit of surprise as there are only 6 frames of bees. Fair bit of brood but still plenty laying space. I gave them 2 frames of foundation last week (2nd frame out from the brood nest on either side).

What are my options please, considering I need act fast. I noticed in the Haynes book there is an A.S method without finding the queen, should I just crack on with this? Any ideas folks?
Thanks Ginger

 

[MuswellMetro]

This is a swarm I caught last year, and they are ready for off again. The problem is I have never been able to spot the queen have had 2 other beeks look with me in the past and she is proving very elusive. I did see her for the first time last Sunday, looked down to grab my "crown of thorns" and she had gone - felt like a right DkHd.
Anyway had a look in today and there are 3 charged queen cells, it's a bit of surprise as there are only 6 frames of bees. Fair bit of brood but still plenty laying space. I gave them 2 frames of foundation last week (2nd frame out from the brood nest on either side).

What are my options please, considering I need act fast. I noticed in the Haynes book there is an A.S method without finding the queen, should I just crack on with this? Any ideas folks?
Thanks Ginger

try a demaree variant

move the old box/brood/unfound queen to the side ,place a new brood box of foundation and floor on the old site, remove four central frames, shake the bees from ALL the old frames, old floor , old box into that new box, replace the four central foundation frames (queen and all bees are in the bottom box) ADD a Queen excluder on top of the new brood box

add two supers of comb (or more), add another Queen excluder on top of the supers

place the old box with the empty brood frames, then crown crown board/roof

after 7 days if you dont want a new queen from the queen cells just destroy them (repat by bringing up brood if the lower queen box makes more queem cells

if you want a new queen, then at 7 days replace the top QE with a split board (with entrance to the rear) or a blocked crown board and floor (with entrance to rear)

if there is a flow on you will need more than / at least two supers and a step ladder, to be sure the old queen stay put then i sometimes add a QE under the bottom box for 7days if the queens are very flighty

 

[Pete D]

Possibly not swarm cells, but super-cedeure ?

 

[richardbees]

agree with MuswellM :

shake the bees from ALL the old frames, old floor , old box into that new box, replace the four central foundation frames (queen and all bees are in the bottom box

but emphasis should be "shake ALL the bees"

(sorry to be picky MM but think it helps)

 

[oliver90owner]

Place two frames of eggs, larvae and laying space in that bottom box with frames of foundation either side.

Shake in the bees.

Queen excluder over the box of bees

Replace bee-less brood box on the top with the space made up with foundation frames (at outside)

Next day, the queen will (likely) be on those two frames, most bees will be upstairs tending the brood. Boxes can be separated, lower box with excluder over being moved away a couple of metrees or more. Leave for an hour. If weather is warm flying bees will vacate and return to the old position. Look for the queen by removing foundation frames around brood frames and allowing light into the box. After a few minutes she will likely be on one of the two 'dark' sides.

No need for more boxes if there are not so many bees.

What you do about the queen cells is another problem. Seems like supercedure (poor queen), but could be the bees need another gene line, or possibly some other reason.

RAB

This is, of course , dependent on the queen being too large to negotiate the excluder.

 

[MuswellMetro]

agree with MuswellM :

shake the bees from ALL the old frames, old floor , old box into that new box, replace the four central foundation frames (queen and all bees are in the bottom box

but emphasis should be "shake ALL the bees"

(sorry to be picky MM but think it helps)

i agree, not even one stray bee,

if i need to do it i use a clean box in the upper position just incase the old queen is an intercaste emergency queen and looks like a worker

 

[Ginger19]

She looks exactly like all my other Queens, just that she is damn elusive!
Going into winter she stopped laying very early, like September. I thought there would be problems with no Winter bees - when I treated with Oxalic early Jan there was only a small cluster across 3 frames. So I dummied down half the BB and insulated the outside and roof of the box with silver quilted roof insulation and waterproofed the outside with green roofing felt, tucked under the roof. It would seem this has given her an early start.
Regarding supercedure - the queen cells are all at the edge of the frame, if that makes a difference.

 

[itma]

This is a swarm I caught last year...
Anyway had a look in today and there are 3 charged queen cells, it's a bit of surprise as there are only 6 frames of bees. Fair bit of brood but still plenty laying space. I gave them 2 frames of foundation last week (2nd frame out from the brood nest on either side).

What are my options please, considering I need act fast. I noticed in the Haynes book there is an A.S method without finding the queen, should I just crack on with this? Any ideas folks?
Thanks Ginger

Possibly not swarm cells, but super-cedeure ?

...
Regarding supercedure - the queen cells are all at the edge of the frame, if that makes a difference.

If they really do have "plenty laying space" (not just foundation), then supercedure could be a good call.

 

[richardbees]

Regarding supercedure - the queen cells are all at the edge of the frame, if that makes a difference

Yes it does...imo supercedure cells are one-offs and towards the middle of the frame....yours do look like probable swarm cells.

....suggest follow MM's advice above

 

[VEG]

ginger19 you didnt say if there were any eggs in the hive when you did the inspection they could have swarmed allready

 

[itma]

Yes, bottom and side edges of frame is favourite for swarm cells.

Top and face of the comb would suggest supercedure.


// Its late - I read the prior post as "top edge". Too late to think straight!

 

[Ginger19]

Took a very experienced beek with me and straight away he said supercedure. It wasn't the position of the 3 Queen cells, 2 of which were now sealed, more the lack of eggs and the stage of brood and larvae. Which in his opinion was 8 days old or older. This coincides with my last inspection the previous Sunday. So it would seem I squished her, not a disaster as they were seriously moody at all times and yet yesterday and today far more placid.

The 2 sealed cells were destroyed and the almost sealed one was left. My other hives have drones so all will come good, hopefully.

 

[itma]

But y'know, I'd call those Emergency Queen Cells, not supercedure!

Supercedure is when they raise a new Q in the presence of the old one, And they co-exist, mother and daughter, together in the hive for a while - days, weeks or even occasionally, months.

If you should ever see two Qs in the same colony, don't panic, don't rush to separate them ... just marvel (and wonder how you missed the QCs when it was happening!)


Anyway, another plug for the Welsh Queen Cells leaflet seems to be in order! http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=28463