Best course of action re treatment now ?

[Thymallus]

Oxalic sublimation and thymol pads.

Thanks

 

[BrianO]

so many different experiences and advice ! All of course given with best intentions and generously .... Though Oxalic winter treatment told essential before, in conjunction with Autumn MAQS

Surely one could also make the point autumnal treatment , especially given the warm autumn we had, had the potential to negatively effect the winter bee numbers.... Maybe ( NB "maybe".... . ) with a greater negative effect than the effect of Oxallic winter treatment ??

 

[Hivemaker.]

Though Oxalic winter treatment told essential before

Essential for some maybe, out of around 24 years of having varroa mites i only used it during two winters, and they were kind winters for bees, never had such losses before, or since, using oxalic trickle during those two winters, obviously in the early years we had reasonably effective strip treatments, they pretty much took care of any varroa problems, but also created others, up until 2002 when resistant mites appeared on the scene.

 

[Erichalfbee]

in conjunction with Autumn MAQS

MAQS is best used earlier in the season with at least one super on.
I did mine at the beginning of July. Even then two of the colonies needed a thymol treatment in September. Last year was a good year for varroa. This winter has been mild so far so maybe it will be a re-run.

 

[BrianO]

Thanks, that concerns me now re the losses you report. Maybe the Oxallic is not suitable ?

Have clean floors in , put in on day if treatment last Sunday, will report back re varroa drop after 7 days on the three hives and 1Nuc.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Maybe the Oxallic is not suitable ?

Another quote for you
https://ealingbees.wordpress.com/2015/01/08/bee-inspector-advice-on-usage-of-oxalic-acid-and-maqs/

Ealing member Brian Mitchison recently received advice from National Bee Unit Regional Bee Inspector Julian Parker on the use of OXALIC ACID if you’ve used MAQs strips.

“It is unwise for beekeepers to use oxalic acid treatments if they have already treated the same (winter) bees with formic acid (MAQS – Mite Away Quick Strips) as this would effectively be a double dose of organic acid. It matters little that one is formic and the other oxalic – the method of action is the same and a second application of either applied to the same winter bees risks high adult bee mortality through a double dose of organic acid burning the bees. The bees can only tolerate so much acid treatment before it burns them lethally, much like the mites. Queen loss would also be a concern.

Any treatments applied to a colony should be recorded on a veterinary medicines record card as bees are considered to be food-producing livestock.”​

Julian Parker
Regional Bee Inspector, South Eastern England, National Bee Unit​

 

[Erichalfbee]

Would any of the MAQSd bees (apart from the queen) still be alive?


PS
Ahhhhhh Queen loss would also be a concern.


I see you said that

 

[itma]

Another quote for you
https://ealingbees.wordpress.com/2015/01/08/bee-inspector-advice-on-usage-of-oxalic-acid-and-maqs/

Ealing member Brian Mitchison recently received advice from National Bee Unit Regional Bee Inspector Julian Parker on the use of OXALIC ACID if you’ve used MAQs strips.

“It is unwise for beekeepers to use oxalic acid treatments if they have already treated the same (winter) bees with formic acid (MAQS – Mite Away Quick Strips) as this would effectively be a double dose of organic acid. It matters little that one is formic and the other oxalic – the method of action is the same and a second application of either applied to the same winter bees risks high adult bee mortality through a double dose of organic acid burning the bees. The bees can only tolerate so much acid treatment before it burns them lethally, much like the mites. Queen loss would also be a concern.

Any treatments applied to a colony should be recorded on a veterinary medicines record card as bees are considered to be food-producing livestock.”​

Julian Parker
Regional Bee Inspector, South Eastern England, National Bee Unit​

Aaah, so Julian hasn't encountered the 5-day repeat Oxalic vaporising treatment that Hivemaker recommends ...

I have to say that Formic Acid (gas) treatment is rather different to Oxalic Syrup trickling - and I for one would not expect the method of action to be "the same".


/// And PS - be sure to ONLY record treatment with "veterinary medicines" on your medication record ... it wouldn't make sense to record things that weren't treatments with (approved) veterinary medicines, now would it?

 

[BeeJayBee]

Aaah, so Julian hasn't encountered the 5-day repeat Oxalic vaporising treatment that Hivemaker recommends ...

Maybe he hasn't. He's RBI for your area - have you asked his opinion?

/// And PS - be sure to ONLY record treatment with "veterinary medicines" on your medication record ... it wouldn't make sense to record things that weren't treatments with (approved) veterinary medicines, now would it?

Would you eat lamb, beef, chicken, goat etc, or buy eggs, from a farmer who used unapproved treatments, didn't write it in the record book in case somebody found out - and got caught?

Honey Bees are food-producing animals. Beekeepers who harvest honey are covered by the same regulations as any other person whose livestock produces food.

Medicines for Bees
http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/index.cfm?pageid=204

Food Safety
National Surveillance Scheme - Honey Sampling
http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/index.cfm?sectionid=44

 

[jd101k2000]

I think a case in point is the recent case of a pub that gave numerous patrons in their restaurant food poisoning (along with their Christmas dinner). One of the patrons died as a result. The guilty pair received prison sentences not for giving their patrons food poisoning, but for falsifying the records.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Another quote for you
https://ealingbees.wordpress.com/2015/01/08/bee-inspector-advice-on-usage-of-oxalic-acid-and-maqs/

Ealing member Brian Mitchison recently received advice from National Bee Unit Regional Bee Inspector Julian Parker on the use of OXALIC ACID if you’ve used MAQs strips.

“It is unwise for beekeepers to use oxalic acid treatments if they have already treated the same (winter) bees with formic acid (MAQS – Mite Away Quick Strips) as this would effectively be a double dose of organic acid. It matters little that one is formic and the other oxalic – the method of action is the same and a second application of either applied to the same winter bees risks high adult bee mortality through a double dose of organic acid burning the bees. The bees can only tolerate so much acid treatment before it burns them lethally, much like the mites. Queen loss would also be a concern.

Any treatments applied to a colony should be recorded on a veterinary medicines record card as bees are considered to be food-producing livestock.”​

Julian Parker
Regional Bee Inspector, South Eastern England, National Bee Unit​

Is that a personal opinion or based on actual research? Is the action/effect of organic acid at different concentration part of the training or prerequisites of being a bee inspector? I've heard an ex bee inspector declare he wouldn't even go near oxalic sublimation. Opinions change.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Is that a personal opinion or based on actual research? Is the action/effect of organic acid at different concentration part of the training or prerequisites of being a bee inspector? I've heard an ex bee inspector declare he wouldn't even go near oxalic sublimation. Opinions change.

Sounds like personal opinion to me or everyone in England and Wales would have reveived much the same from their RBI's
Remember, some bee inspectors still maintain we should have gaping holes in crownboards and advise the use of matchsticks

 

[itma]

Maybe he hasn't. He's RBI for your area - have you asked his opinion?

He's become the new RBI for the whole of the South East, but based on the other side of London to me. Haven't met the bloke yet.
And, up until now, I've not had cause to seek out his opinion on anything. Not being a sublimator myself (let alone a repeat offender), I'm happy to leave it until we happen to meet.

Would you eat lamb, beef, chicken, goat etc, or buy eggs, from a farmer who used unapproved treatments, didn't write it in the record book in case somebody found out - and got caught?

Honey Bees are food-producing animals. Beekeepers who harvest honey are covered by the same regulations as any other person whose livestock produces food.

Officialdom has, for something over 10 years, managed to overlook the use of organic acids on bees, as when used properly, even though unapproved, they are known to be both effective and safe. A blind eye worthy of Nelson himself.
The current release of "Managing Varroa" treads a fine line masterfully.

However, there is a catch, and it does equate with Joseph Heller's Catch-22.
You are damned if you do, and damned if you don't, record the use of Oxalic.

Do you permanently record on an inspectable official document your use of an un-authorised treatment, or do you just do it (in the knowledge of its safety and efficacy) and take the risk of being caught in the act?

My own personal compromise is to record the use of Oxalic - BUT NOT in the official medicines record --- because it shouldn't be in there.


I'm not referring to any other products or materials - really just Oxalic Acid. (Formic is covered below, and Lactic is almost unheard-of in the UK.)
Oxalic Acid is a special, a unique, case.
It has no equivalent that I know of in other agricultural or food practices.

It would be a travesty to suggest that I was advocating a similar approach to all other substances.



However, the Oxalic situation is potentially likely to change.
MAQS has gone through approval as a means of using Formic. It belongs in the Veterinary Medicines Record. Personally, I think you'd have to be both miserly and foolishly brave to choose to use Formic differently - in one of those Nassenheider evaporators.
At the BBKA ADM, Delegates heard from the President that the Home Office believes Oxalic might be used for nefarious purposes (I'm sceptical myself) and wants to ban it from open sale. This becomes more possible with the official Approval of an Oxalic product for trickling. So, should enforcement ever start, how good is it likely to be that you have records that you must produce on demand (going back at least 5 years) showing repeated administration of unauthorised products to your bees?

Veterinary Medicines go in the Veterinary Medicines Record.
Anything else is part of the hive/colony records.

 

[alanf]

My own personal compromise is to record the use of Oxalic - BUT NOT in the official medicines record --- because it shouldn't be in there.

I'm not referring to any other products or materials - really just Oxalic Acid. (Formic is covered below, and Lactic is almost unheard-of in the UK.)
Oxalic Acid is a special, a unique, case.
It has no equivalent that I know of in other agricultural or food practices.

It would be a travesty to suggest that I was advocating a similar approach to all other substances.

However, the Oxalic situation is potentially likely to change.
MAQS has gone through approval as a means of using Formic. It belongs in the Veterinary Medicines Record. Personally, I think you'd have to be both miserly and foolishly brave to choose to use Formic differently - in one of those Nassenheider evaporators.
At the BBKA ADM, Delegates heard from the President that the Home Office believes Oxalic might be used for nefarious purposes (I'm sceptical myself) and wants to ban it from open sale. This becomes more possible with the official Approval of an Oxalic product for trickling. So, should enforcement ever start, how good is it likely to be that you have records that you must produce on demand (going back at least 5 years) showing repeated administration of unauthorised products to your bees?

Veterinary Medicines go in the Veterinary Medicines Record.
Anything else is part of the hive/colony records.

I think that recording strategy is about right. I'd include Hiveclean treatments or any of the other "patent" products based on thymol or oxalic on a non-VMD hive record along with oxalic and off-the-hive treatments of comb like acetic or Certan.

The basis of the VMD registration process is that it's designed for the big pharma companies to register their portfolio of "medicines", i.e. drugs that have been steered through a testing and patenting process. It's not really appropriate for simple substances. A reasonable analogy is the marketing of "food supplements", the vitamins and oils on the shelf of every pharmacy and supermarket. Not licensed as medicines and every so often there is a movement to ban or restrict the marketing, often inspired or encouraged by the big pharma companies.

As to the "oxalic might be used for nefarious purposes", well probably less useful than many other still freely available chemicals like acids and hairdressing products as used by the 7/7 bombers. By volume, the far larger portion is sold for bleaching on boats and woodwork.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

at the BBKA ADM, Delegates heard from the President that the Home Office believes Oxalic might be used for nefarious purposes [/B]

I'm glad to see that it's not just regarding beekeeping matters that these people live in cloud cuckoo land.
I suppose HMG are also considering banning the sale of chappati flour seeing that it has been used for 'nefarious purposes' (funnily enough when I did my firearms and explosives trainer's course OA was one of the few 'freely available' substances we didn'tuse to make bombs!!)
But look on the bright side - they'll probably also ban matches to cut down on arson attacks

 

[BrianO]

To report back, perhaps of interest to some.

3 full colonies one Nuc. Treated late last year with MAQS, but only 1 strip.

Last Sunday dribbled the correct concentration of Oxalic , 5ml per seam, actually used more first 5ml then gave some extra.... Before the " why did you not only use 5ml as instructions " why because I was concerned the 1 MAQS had been ineffective

I put floors all the way in after treatment to monitor the drop returning today to all hives to check.

12 degrees and all hives absolute buzzing, bees coming and going in their 10s approx ( to try to put a guesstimate on it ) constantly. Cleansing flights but also some with minimal pollen coming in.

Now the interesting bit , 3 full colonies ( couldn't get to Nuc as is one of 2 hives I have in communal Apiary and the Nuc was in the centre , with no suit not a chance of getting to . ) anyway examined all 3 no. full hive solid floors, this is after 7 days, large mite drop, will follow with pics, each floor I guess 100 plus drop.

I would take from that , that the 1 MAQS strip treatment advocated by some is insufficient ( correlates with findings published of survey by our national agriculture state body who trialled MAQS in different scenarios 1 & 2 strip, and reported in our monthly association journal that 1 strip is insufficient ) .

Also that the oxallic is highly effective, especially in the quantity dosage I administered at the recommended strength. IE more than the recommended 5 ML, and looking at all 3 hives 7 days later all seem in good health, not many dead bees, far less than the 100 plus I observed when a fellow beekeeper last Autumn administered his with 2 MAQS strips


So I would take from this that 2 MAQS early September , early enough to allow for the kill off of brood and relaying to rear winter bees before real winter onset, and Oxallic as detailed above are a good combination.

 

[Hivemaker.]

As to the "oxalic might be used for nefarious purposes", well probably less useful than many other still freely available chemicals like acids and hairdressing products as used by the 7/7 bombers.

I agree, the ingredients to produce things like gun cotton are freely available to buy online, and easy to make.

 

[itma]

Brian, you raise various points.
100 varroa over 7 days isn't a massive drop after treatment. In the UK, Government advice is that 1000 mites in a full colony is something that needs immediate treatment.
When there is bee-brood around, varroa numbers can double in 3 to 4 weeks.

MAQS 'adequacy' - if you look back you'll see that you were advised that one MAQS strip (in late October, wasn't it?) should ensure that you didn't have a major varroa problem BEFORE midwinter Oxalic treatment.
The second thing to remember is that 2 MAQS strips has occasionally caused problems for some colonies - which might be due to colony strength, temperature, hive volume, ventilation or whatever. However, I don't recall anyone having problems with a single strip.
I'd say that the indication was that a single strip actually WAS perfectly adequate to tide you over until the midwinter heavy treatment with Oxalic.

I think it is best to practice "Integrated Pest Management" - treating as and when required to keep the varroa numbers down (rather than looking for something that will deal with the problem just once each year).
And, for IPM, MAQS offers a technique that can be used when there is honey on the hive, and, as in your case when a quick treatment is required and it is anyway getting late (cool) for a month of Thymol-based product treatment.

Next year, I hope you'll monitor the drops, and whatever else you may do, get a Thymol treatment on before it gets too late (and you'd be better to aim to get the Oxalic done before New Year rather than in late January).
MAQS, in my view, is a useful special-purpose treatment, only for use if circumstances dictate. (And I'd probably still advise a single-strip as the safe option for a "holding action".)

 

[itma]

... As to the "oxalic might be used for nefarious purposes", well probably less useful than many other still freely available chemicals like acids and hairdressing products as used by the 7/7 bombers. By volume, the far larger portion is sold for bleaching on boats and woodwork.

ISTR that diesel fuel, flour and even sugar can be employed to make mischief. (Who was that buying large quantities of sugar?)
My point was that the BBKA President believed that Oxalic was under suspicion by the Home Office, and if were ever to become 'controlled', this (combined with theoretical availability of a proprietary approved product) would require the Bee Inspectorate, etc, to look differently on 'homebrew' Oxalic products - and likely make Oxalic vaporising akin to hydroponic cultivation.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

My point was that the BBKA President believed that Oxalic was under suspicion by the Home Office, and if were ever to become 'controlled', this (combined with theoretical availability of a proprietary approved product) would require the Bee Inspectorate, etc, to look differently on 'homebrew' Oxalic products - and likely make Oxalic vaporising akin to hydroponic cultivation.

And my point was that he was talking b*llox