Best catch-up plan re QX and supers

[cwinte]

Not had a clear plan of where I need to get to when and been away a lot, not around beekeepers etc.
Late Sept and early Oct I have mostly been seeing pollen and stores going in and very happy to see it since one of the 2 colonies almost died out Q- early Sept.

So now realise it is much cooler and after all the rainy weather etc things should probably be configured differently.

How it is now (Standard nationals):
HIVE 1 : Brood box has probably 5 or 6 frames of bees, 4 or 5 frames of stores but a month since last look.
Over that QX and 2 supers that were building up stores. One around 20Kg the other 10Kg back mid Sept.
I was happy for them to keep all this for winter supplies and thought they were doing well BUT did not think through how it should be arranged re QX and where they will cluster in bad weather etc. Some foraging today and recently but way down on levels a week ago.

HIVE 2
Similar but only 1 super on over the QX.

Maybe I should take 10 best frames and nadir under BB, remove QX, harvest any other frames. But it is late in the year to be going in. We have a few sunnier days coming up (Kent here) but daytime max forecast is 12-13C except wet Friday maybe 17...
BEST plan??


General background: last winter was survived by my 1 first hive which only re-started laying in mid Sept after being Q-. (I have had lots of Q absence problems my first 2 years). I think they are well protected from wind, rain and cold here and often forage in Jan/Feb.
I'd prefer not to start next year with brood in 2 boxes as I struggled to recover from that this year! So I was leaving the QX and assumed they'd bring stores into BB over winter and then be well set up for Spring.
Sounds like that is a risky hope that the stores will be brought down to HM if the weather is cold.

So do I dive in and Nadir (best) super? (Getting a look at stores & bees levels at the same time.)

Just remove the QX and leave one super over on each hive?

Just move boxes or also arrange best frames in supers? (I would see how the colony reacted to my actions on this one, if trying!)

Do on a colder sunny or warmer rainy day?

 

[cwinte]

Need advice (beginners) hive configuration change

Not sure if I will get rapid response to my post in beginners so hope its OK to "advertise" it here.
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=45666

It's a "wouldn't want to start from here but...", what to do and when?

 

[BMH]

If it were me, I would remove all queen excluders now and leave your best super (as full as can be) on top of the brood box.

I personally think its too late to nadir now. You want brood below and stores above going into winter so they can move upwards.

Come spring, let them build up naturally and then reintroduce excluder and make the the queen is below. You are then set for the season.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Too late to fiddle about too much, definitely too late to nadir. Leaving QX on over winter is a surefire way of losing colonies.
You don't mention whether you have treated for varroa, or what you have used.
Start with the singe super hive, crack the crown board and assess how many frames of stores, remove QX, close up.
Double super hive, same, asess how much stores are in both supers, remove QX, close up.

The rest depends on what you have found:
With the double super hive, if both are full of stores, I would just take the top one off and extract (after all, that is the point of keeping bees) leaving one on for winter, if one is not full of stores, rearrange frames a bit to leave one full super on
Single super hive, if super full, leave them to it, if not, you could always take a few full frames out of the one you've taken off the other hive and put in that one.
As for brood in the super come spring - simple solution, first inspection, find the queen, if she's in the super, mover into the brood box and replace QX, if she's already in the brood box, just put the QX back in.
Next autumn, be normal, take off the supers and extract, feed the bees for winter - problem solved.

Report back after you've done the above

 

[cwinte]

Thanks for advice, what sort of day to go for?

Thanks for the clear steer on action.

Both hives had Oxalic vape twice in one week in Sept so think verroa very much knocked down. Tray on hive 2 collected about 120 verroa over last 40 days...
Have put observation boards under both to get a better view of activity before my next action...

Just wonder if I should do it on a day like today sunny cool 10C, though too late today I think, or wait for warmer day like Friday (17C cloudier, between shower/rain periods probably)

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Just wonder if I should do it on a day like today sunny cool 10C, though too late today I think, or wait for warmer day like Friday (17C cloudier, between shower/rain periods probably)

Do it ASAP - you're not conducting an inspection, not pulling any brood frames and will hopefully only be in there for a couple of minutes so temperature not a massive factor

 

[Erichalfbee]

Not sure if I will get rapid response to my post in beginners so hope its OK to "advertise" it here.
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=45666

It's a "wouldn't want to start from here but...", what to do and when?

Hope you don't mind. Ive merged both your threads as you've had decent replies on this one

 

[Swarm]

Too late to fiddle about too much, definitely too late to nadir. Leaving QX on over winter is a surefire way of losing colonies.
You don't mention whether you have treated for varroa, or what you have used.
Start with the singe super hive, crack the crown board and assess how many frames of stores, remove QX, close up.
Double super hive, same, asess how much stores are in both supers, remove QX, close up.

The rest depends on what you have found:
With the double super hive, if both are full of stores, I would just take the top one off and extract (after all, that is the point of keeping bees) leaving one on for winter, if one is not full of stores, rearrange frames a bit to leave one full super on
Single super hive, if super full, leave them to it, if not, you could always take a few full frames out of the one you've taken off the other hive and put in that one.
As for brood in the super come spring - simple solution, first inspection, find the queen, if she's in the super, mover into the brood box and replace QX, if she's already in the brood box, just put the QX back in.
Next autumn, be normal, take off the supers and extract, feed the bees for winter - problem solved.

Report back after you've done the above

All sound advice, especially this bit. No point in using supers otherwise.

 

[cwinte]

OP: action & results

Thanks all...
Despite sinking sun and cooling 9C went for the changes. They were not best pleased to see me but it went OK on balance.

Shaking the bees off the top of 2 supers resulted in quite a lot of wet honey also on the ground by entrance which a cupful of bees are still lapping up as it starts to get dark.
The second, lower, super was rather dark comb and wild with bridging etc. I think it had been that way since the colony went Q- for a while. Probably a bit less stores now in total than I'd wanted so will feed them for a while.

Other single super hive very quick and easy to pull the QX from. Would probably also do with a bit of a feed as there was less stores than I had hoped.

Quite a bit of moisture around inside, hardly surprising given the rain and wet these last weeks. Outer edges of outer super removed had a slight thin film of mould look. Assume best to destroy this rather than put spores back in anywhere.

Points noted for next season. Had never clocked the "remove QX for winter" basic and it's reasons! Lucky to notice it in a beginners lecture at the National Honey Show.

Thanks again...

 

[cwinte]

Hope you don't mind. Ive merged both your threads as you've had decent replies on this one

Very happy to have had such good response and got it done!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Thanks all...
Despite sinking sun and cooling 9C went for the changes. They were not best pleased to see me but it went OK on balance.

Shaking the bees off the top of 2 supers resulted in quite a lot of wet honey also on the ground by entrance which a cupful of bees are still lapping up as it starts to get dark.
The second, lower, super was rather dark comb and wild with bridging etc. I think it had been that way since the colony went Q- for a while. Probably a bit less stores now in total than I'd wanted so will feed them for a while.

Other single super hive very quick and easy to pull the QX from. Would probably also do with a bit of a feed as there was less stores than I had hoped.

Most of their stores will be packed around and behind the brood in the brood box and usually enough for the winter - any in the super is a bonus. Feeding too much is almost as bad as feeding too little.

 

[bingevader]

All sound advice, especially this bit. No point in using supers otherwise.

You'll have to explain that bit please.
What are you suggesting novices use instead?

We've always left at least one full super.
It's an alternative method, but does mean you don't have to feed.
As JBM has already posted, you just have to check that the queen is in brood box in the spring before replacing the QE or move her down if necessary.

 

[Swarm]

You'll have to explain that bit please.
What are you suggesting novices use instead?

We've always left at least one full super.
It's an alternative method, but does mean you don't have to feed.
As JBM has already posted, you just have to check that the queen is in brood box in the spring before replacing the QE or move her down if necessary.

Will I?
If you are going to miss out the part of JBM's post I was referring to, it seems you overlooked the bold text.

 

[Erichalfbee]

You'll have to explain that bit please.
What are you suggesting novices use instead?

We've always left at least one full super.
It's an alternative method, but does mean you don't have to feed.
As JBM has already posted, you just have to check that the queen is in brood box in the spring before replacing the QE or move her down if necessary.

The point is that even in a standard national there is enough room for the bees to have their stores around them without leaving a super on.
Of course you can leave as many supers on as you want and if you're running brood and a half there is a shallow left anyway, whether it's top or bottom.
The advice to novices is to take the honey and feed.

 

[bingevader]

Will I?

No, of course you won't, please yourself.
But I still find a use for supers even though I leave one on and don't feed.

If you are going to miss out the part of JBM's post I was referring to, it seems you overlooked the bold text.

No, got the bold text thanks!

The point is that even in a standard national there is enough room for the bees to have their stores around them without leaving a super on.

Then why the need to feed?
That's rhetorical, I know the answer.

Of course you can leave as many supers on as you want and if you're running brood and a half there is a shallow left anyway, whether it's top or bottom.
The advice to novices is to take the honey and feed.

But why is this the only advice acceptable for novices on this forum?
If you don't take the super, you don't have to feed.

There used to be an adage that if you asked four beekeepers for advice, you'd get four answers!
That doesn't seem to apply here.

Is this purely a commercial, semi/professional beekeeping forum now?
Is there no room for the back garden beekeeper or hobbyist any more?
That would be a shame.

 

[Erichalfbee]

But why is this the only advice acceptable for novices on this forum?
If you don't take the super, you don't have to feed.

There used to be an adage that if you asked four beekeepers for advice, you'd get four answers!
That doesn't seem to apply here.

It isn't the only acceptable advice. What about yours?
The OP can make his mind up

 

[Erichalfbee]

Is there no room for the back garden beekeeper or hobbyist any more?
That would be a shame.

I found this just for you
"Go Tell The Bees"
"Go Tell The Bees I Am Gone"

There was a time when almost every rural family who kept bees followed a tradition. Whenever there was a death in the family, someone would go out to the hives and break the news to the bees of the terrible loss that had befallen them. Failing to do so resulted in further losses such as the bees leaving the hive, or not producing enough honey and even dying.
Traditionally, the bees were always kept abreast of not only deaths but all important family matters including births and marriages. If there was a wedding in the family, the hives were decorated and pieces of wedding cake left outside the hive so that the bees too could also partake in the festivities. Newly-wed couples always introduced themselves to the bees of the house, otherwise their entire married life was bound to be miserable. Even long absence due to journeys or sickness were always explained. If the bees were not told what was going on, all sorts of calamities were thought to happen. This peculiar custom is known as “telling the bees”.
Beekeepers also needed to talk to the bees in calm voices and never, ever used harsh words for fear of upsetting them. Quarrelling in earshot was not something that ever happened either. Marriages, new births and deaths were always marked by decorating the hive and telling the bees what had happened. A death always required black ribbon to be wrapped around the hive, to comfort the bees. Bees were involved in everything that mattered. Every aspect.
The death of their beekeeper required the new beekeeper to introduce themselves formally as their new owner and ask for their acceptance as their new master/mistress. It was said that not doing this would also encourage the bees to desert the hive or the queen would simply stop laying and the bees would all die off, one by one. This is a tradition that we encourage new beekeepers to continue today. To some, it may seem strange, but to beekeepers, talking to the bees is the most natural, wonderful thing to do. Bees make us want to be better people.

 

[Poly Hive]

I told the bees when my relations died.

The point that is being missed here is by not feeding one is taking the risk that the colony does not have enough stores so hefting is strongly advisable.

Since I started putting fondant on whether the bees need feed or NOT, my winter losses have plummeted. I lose the odd one to mismated queens but thats perfectly normal all in all with multiple colonies. so what has changed? I strongly suspect its avoiding isolation starvation. Whatever fondant is leftover I turn into thin syrup for stimulative feeding in Spring. Win win.

Whilst everything is debatable I can guarantee this. Dead bees produce no honey.

Further, it was by listening to what the big guys do that I learned many a trick. So dinna moan, listen and learn. Discard if you want but listen.



PH

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Is this purely a commercial, semi/professional beekeeping forum now?
Is there no room for the back garden beekeeper or hobbyist any more?
That would be a shame.

|There's advice, poor advice and then there's pure drivel - doesn't matter what level of beekeeping they are, drivel is still drivel and should be called out
No amount of tantrums can change that

 

[bingevader]

It isn't the only acceptable advice. What about yours?
The OP can make his mind up

Hopefully!
But what had left me wondering was the way you had written:

The advice to novices is to take the honey and feed.

Thanks for the quote though, I have it!
I've always talked to the bees, always will.