Bee farmer / Commercial queen rearing

[Apiarist]

1. How many queens do you produce each year?
1200

Maybe a helpful extra piece of info. would be how many Virgins does one rear, and how many mated (non-superceded) Queens does one produce per year: Michael has said 1200 per year, is that the number you NEED, meaning if you had a poor mating year, as often happens in Ireland, and you only get a one third successful mating would you be able to cope with that, etc.

To get 1200 mated / laying queens here in Ireland I would need to place 2400 Virgin Queens into Apideas, due to our weather and seasons, etc. you could only be sure of being able to use each Apidea twice (three times if the season was very good, and you were willing / able to check them regularly - I can't so I like mini mating nucs instead).

 

[Michael Palmer]

1200 is how many queens I cage in the year. The % return of virging from their mating flights varies. I've had as low as 65% return and as high as 90+%. I'm happy with anything over 80%. For the whole process from graft to catching mated queens...I have 512 mating nucs.m I graft every 4 days...192 grafts. I use 128 cells from each graft, giving away any I don't need and destroying substandard cells. From those 128 cells, we catch 80-105 mated queens. Of the queens we catch, 6-700 are used in my apiaries and the rest are sold.

Wow, you're only getting 50% return of mated queens? That hurts!

 

[Apiarist]

Wow, you're only getting 50% return of mated queens? That hurts!

Thanks for that info. it's helpful to understand your process more.

Yes, about 50% success is what I am usually told here in Ireland. I know of one beekeeper in 2021 which had 93%, but the previous year had near 35%. My worst year was 35%, best year 65%, this past year four apiaries at 20%, 33% 50% and 66%, I can see NO patterns whatsoever... I've spoken to other beekeepers on the west coast of Britain and very rural areas (think large vast areas used for hill sheep farming) which are getting around 25% per year (worst year 11%)... there is one beekeeper which does lectures which claims to get an average of 90%, he is a very competent beekeeper, but I cannot understand how he achieves such a high success rate - for comparison I've read Studies (based on many years and many apiaries) which show an average in the Adriatic of 90%, Germany of 85%, Poland of 75%. Many beekeepers also (privately) tell me of a high supercedure rate, which makes me suspect their successful mating rates are inflated.

 

[Michael Palmer]

Thanks for that info. it's helpful to understand your process more.

Yes, about 50% success is what I am usually told here in Ireland. I know of one beekeeper in 2021 which had 93%, but the previous year had near 35%. My worst year was 35%, best year 65%, this past year four apiaries at 20%, 33% 50% and 66%, I can see NO patterns whatsoever... I've spoken to other beekeepers on the west coast of Britain and very rural areas (think large vast areas used for hill sheep farming) which are getting around 25% per year (worst year 11%)... there is one beekeeper which does lectures which claims to get an average of 90%, he is a very competent beekeeper, but I cannot understand how he achieves such a high success rate - for comparison I've read Studies (based on many years and many apiaries) which show an average in the Adriatic of 90%, Germany of 85%, Poland of 75%. Many beekeepers also (privately) tell me of a high supercedure rate, which makes me suspect their successful mating rates are inflated.

 

[Michael Palmer]

I couldn't imagine such low return of mated queens. Do you think it entirely the fault of the weather? Could it, in some way, be caused by the mating box? When you have a mating nuc that fails, what are you seeing? Queenless or unmated virgin or drone layer? Something else?

 

[elainemary]

Maybe a helpful extra piece of info. would be how many Virgins does one rear, and how many mated (non-superceded) Queens does one produce per year: Michael has said 1200 per year, is that the number you NEED, meaning if you had a poor mating year, as often happens in Ireland, and you only get a one third successful mating would you be able to cope with that, etc.

To get 1200 mated / laying queens here in Ireland I would need to place 2400 Virgin Queens into Apideas, due to our weather and seasons, etc. you could only be sure of being able to use each Apidea twice (three times if the season was very good, and you were willing / able to check them regularly - I can't so I like mini mating nucs instead).

Yes, for the hobbyist the general rule of thumb is start double the cells to make the actual number of mated queens you need, due to attrition at every stage of the process, i.e. 50%. Though from my 'research' about commercial beekeepers, they achieve c80% and spread out their rearing to take into account weather factors. Agree though, in some areas of the country, it can be a bad weather year.

Last year I had 70% grafting success and 100% mating success here is the South Pennines (15 queens so small numbers), but I lost a couple of queens at introduction stage. Also 2 cells didn't emerge, though looked good, pupa was malformed / dead inside. I have learnt what I did wrong re the introduction (I tried to unite a nuc with a mated queen to the Queenless original cell raiser, I should have left a cell instead).

Next season I plan to let cells emerge to virgins and check they're ok first prior to introduction. Be interesting to hear what others do...re cells vs virgins and pros and cons. Also precautions taken at introduction.

 

[Beesnaturally]

So, "Beesnaturally", but "killasmanywaspsaspossible"?

Any inconsistency here?

Haha, yes, possibly. One battle at a time perhaps!

Today's battles are varroa (natural defences) and good superceding. I let the bees sort those out. But I keep teenage boys, colony thieves and wasps away.

 

[Boston Bees]

Haha, yes, possibly. One battle at a time perhaps!

Today's battles are varroa (natural defences) and good superceding. I let the bees sort those out. But I keep teenage boys, colony thieves and wasps away.

Fine, but unlike teenage boys or thieves wasps are part of natural selection. So by killing large numbers of them, you create bees which are genetically weak in terms of protecting their nest.

Which is fine, if that's what you choose to do. But it does make it somewhat hypocritical for you to argue against varroa treatment from a genetic point of view.

 

[elainemary]

Thanks for that info. it's helpful to understand your process more.

Yes, about 50% success is what I am usually told here in Ireland. I know of one beekeeper in 2021 which had 93%, but the previous year had near 35%. My worst year was 35%, best year 65%, this past year four apiaries at 20%, 33% 50% and 66%, I can see NO patterns whatsoever... I've spoken to other beekeepers on the west coast of Britain and very rural areas (think large vast areas used for hill sheep farming) which are getting around 25% per year (worst year 11%)... there is one beekeeper which does lectures which claims to get an average of 90%, he is a very competent beekeeper, but I cannot understand how he achieves such a high success rate - for comparison I've read Studies (based on many years and many apiaries) which show an average in the Adriatic of 90%, Germany of 85%, Poland of 75%. Many beekeepers also (privately) tell me of a high supercedure rate, which makes me suspect their successful mating rates are inflated.

Are they pure, or with high genetics of AMM? Think I've read they local vicinity mate more than other sub-species. Do you have enough unrelated drone lines in your remote area, could that be the crux? Do you observe much inbreeding?

 

[madasafish]

Next season I plan to let cells emerge to virgins and check they're ok first prior to introduction. Be interesting to hear what others do...re cells vs virgins and pros and cons. Also precautions taken at introduction.

Incubate, and when emerged , check and mark.

We get late frosts in May/June (!) in some years - plays havoc with queen rearing in mini nucs .

 

[Into the lions den]

A few interesting points....

Firstly...in general...unless the person has no axe to grind...like Michael Palmer.....only believe your own figures. Everyone counts differently and some are downright mendacious...similar to the tall tales on honey averages.

Jolanta actually harvested a little in excess of 2500 mated laying queens. Strike rate varies between 60% and 85% (which she was getting for a spell in 2021 in fact on one apiary she had approx 30 hits in a row. But...weather is wrong you can struggle and one time we had rain and direct into a heatwave a whole bunch of stands just cleared off into the trees (too much direct sunlight...dont use the spot any more.

Count based on number of virgins put into mating boxes against number of definite good laying queens harvested.

We are pushed to average 2 mated laying queens per box on average. Last year she got a little over that. The best well establish boxes will do 4 queens..even (very rarely) 5...but some go the whole season and never turn out even one. However we have a very short season...dont graft until into May as we need to see plenty drones appearing, and finish grafting in the latter part of July.

 

[Bazzer]

I have found it extremely difficult to get my bees in Apidea or Keilers to go through a 2nd cycle - they reject QC, virgin queens, caged virgin queens either introduced immediately, w/wo smoke, after 12h, 24h etc. Therefore I now simply combine the Apideas/Keilers containing mated queens with a queenless nuc - I find this is actually labour saving since there is no need to catch, cage or introduce the queen and I have so far had 100% take. It can be carried out in poor weather (common here) and the new nuc has an additional boost of bees so takes off very quickly.

 

[Apiarist]

Are they pure, or with high genetics of AMM? Think I've read they local vicinity mate more than other sub-species. Do you have enough unrelated drone lines in your remote area, could that be the crux? Do you observe much inbreeding?

The bees all look different, I don't reduce their genetics by culling for colour like many others here, i used four different mating apiaries in 2021, and a fifth different in 2020, the majority of experienced beeks are telling me basically the same thing. I haven't observed inbreeding - spotty brood or uptick in aggression before the new queens own bees emerge. I'm not convinced of Apiary Vicinity Mating, but there were loads of drones. Oh, and I made sure to mate them throughout the year, not all in the same week.

 

[Apiarist]

We are pushed to average 2 mated laying queens per box on average. Last year she got a little over that. The best well establish boxes will do 4 queens..even (very rarely) 5...but some go the whole season and never turn out even one. However we have a very short season...dont graft until into May as we need to see plenty drones appearing, and finish grafting in the latter part of July.

How do the bees live that long, is it because they're not rearing brood (which shortens their lives)?
- here in NI were didn't have mature Drones until the 2nd/3rd week of May.

I have found it extremely difficult to get my bees in Apidea or Keilers to go through a 2nd cycle...

If you use the same Apidea, etc. you will have to remove the mated laying Queen, and then very soon afterward put in a sealed Queen Cell, but don't you have to be very careful to make sure there are no eggs or young larvae in the Apidea from the previous Queen otherwise they will start rearing Emergency Queen cells?

 

[Beesnaturally]

Fine, but unlike teenage boys or thieves wasps are part of natural selection. So by killing large numbers of them, you create bees which are genetically weak in terms of protecting their nest.

Which is fine, if that's what you choose to do. But it does make it somewhat hypocritical for you to argue against varroa treatment from a genetic point of view.

If choosing your battles means you can make progress with a key goal I think that's pragmatism. But I do take your point.
All else being equal, in nature large early swarms tend to have much better survival rates than small ones. To a beekeeper wishing to expand this sets up a conflict of course. Lots of small colonies will help you reach your goal faster. - but they will tend to fall to robbing and wasps.
Given that I'm making increase from hives that have thrived multi-year without help, and taken the losses necessary to test out the strongest, I think I have a little leeway here.

 

[rolande]

Lots of small colonies will help you reach your goal faster. - but they will tend to fall to robbing and wasps.

Well, if your goal is to lose colonies to robbing and wasps then fine. But what if your goal is to keep your bees alive, how will being wiped out help? Far as I can see it'll just cost money (which can be got back) and time (which we're all running out of). Sounds like a bad idea to me.

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I've written this many times before but I'll repeat it as an off topic observation :

I don't believe for one minute that colony size has a bearing on wasp attacks, rather, I'm totally convinced that it's colony cohesion, what you might call 'heart' or the lack of it that has the major influence here. Wasps will attack a large but 'soft' colony before they take on a small defensive one. Maybe they can work out the risk/reward equation at some instinctive level.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Well, if your goal is to lose colonies to robbing and wasps then fine. But what if your goal is to keep your bees alive, how will being wiped out help? Far as I can see it'll just cost money (which can be got back) and time (which we're all running out of). Sounds like a bad idea to me.

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I've written this many times before but I'll repeat it as an off topic observation :

I don't believe for one minute that colony size has a bearing on wasp attacks, rather, I'm totally convinced that it's colony cohesion, what you might call 'heart' or the lack of it that has the major influence here. Wasps will attack a large but 'soft' colony before they take on a small defensive one. Maybe they can work out the risk/reward equation at some instinctive level.

Hi Roland,
An operation trying to raise productive bees that don't harm surrounding wild bees must first locate self-sufficient strains. With that done a program of increase from those strains will enable expansion. So we might look at this as a two-stage operation.

In reality breeding is a multi-stage, continuous operation. You try to breed toward your goals.

I'm interested in your thoughts about wasps. I have to confess that till now I've just protected as a matter of course, and without really thinking about it. I've made a mental note to change that, and I'd be interested in your thoughts as to an approach that fits my overarching goal of aiding natural adaptation.

 

[Sanntos]

.....
I've written this many times before but I'll repeat it as an off topic observation :

I don't believe for one minute that colony size has a bearing on wasp attacks, rather, I'm totally convinced that it's colony cohesion, what you might call 'heart' or the lack of it that has the major influence here. Wasps will attack a large but 'soft' colony before they take on a small defensive one. Maybe they can work out the risk/reward equation at some instinctive level.

It's about density (number of bees per volume), and entrance size. It's also about age of the workers.
Two colonies of the same size and age, say X bees, one colony in a ten frame box, and the other in a five frame nuc, both hives having the same entrance size, the wasps will attack the bigger box. That is because the wasp has no problem once inside the hive, they are looking for frames with open nectar or honey outside the cluster, without many bees. It's easier to find these frames in the ten frame box.

 

[rolande]

It's about density (number of bees per volume), and entrance size. It's also about age of the workers.
Two colonies of the same size and age, say X bees, one colony in a ten frame box, and the other in a five frame nuc, both hives having the same entrance size, the wasps will attack the bigger box. That is because the wasp has no problem once inside the hive, they are looking for frames with open nectar or honey outside the cluster, without many bees. It's easier to find these frames in the ten frame box.

No that's not what I see, it goes deeper than that, this is something I'm certain of.

 

[maddydog]

Apideas I'd be surprised if I got more than 20% success over the years I've tried. Mating nucs containing full sized frames are in the 60% region. I would take something approaching jolanta's rate any day of the week!