Asian hornet traps and baits - please review what you've used

[Karol]

No I haven't. Possibly because I aren't looking but simply because you haven't found evidence of a negative doesn't imply the existence of a positive .

Mazzamazda's contribution, #502:

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/asian-hornets.55917/post-883682
Spring trapping is extensively used in areas manifestly overrun with velutina. It doesn't work and only makes things worse.

 

[Karol]

Are you deliberately missing the point being suggested that stating spring trapping was a bad idea and which I replied to? You say traps won't work in autumn and wring your hands about bycatch despite timing spring trapping being used during restricted period to minimize that.
I don't disagree the NBU are doing Stirling work but it's reactive.

or targetted and therefore judicious

Killing queens alongside natural failure reduces the number of target nests to find and deal with.

No it doesn't. Otherwise spring trapping would have worked in areas overrun with velutina which it hasn't.

If the hornet colony is stronger it follows more traffic will be observable and tracking simplified. Ten target colonies instead of fifty or more gives a military advantage towards subjugating the threat.

50 nests will not only compete with each other and inhibit each other from developing sexuals they will also have to compete with native vespines. Ten nests will produce 15,000 queens. Just one nest at 1500 queens will be enough to repopulate an area and you assume that all the nests would be found and destroyed.

Don't forget, I'm a wasp trap salesman. It would have been the easiest thing for me to profit on the back of all the fear about velutina given that I had a trap configured for velutina back in 2017.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Don't forget, I'm a wasp trap salesman. It would have been the easiest thing for me to profit on the back of all the fear about velutina given that I had a trap configured for velutina back in 2017.

I do believe your potential profit from not killing off all the wasps was mentioned quite fiercely by one of the members a few years ago but let's stick to the matter in hand and not wander off down side alleys.

 

[Christine Hamilton]

If 4 queens emerge in Spring to forage for insects and build primary nests, but 3 are trapped, the remaining queen would be able to profit from the extra forage available and develop a bigger nest faster.

If this is so, Spring trapping cannot do anything other than increase the likelihood of a vast nest by late summer, ready to produce a significantly greater number of new queens, than had the original 4 queens been left to develop smaller less successful nests.

This scenario was outlined a while ago by Karol, and the gist of it explained why Spring trapping in Europe did not lead to reduced predation on pollinators.

Is there a flaw in this principle of not trapping in Spring?

Your scenario is only true if there is a shortage of forage. If there is a lot of forage then four queens wil thrive and there will be four times the offspring, than if they weren’t killed in the Spring. If there is a shortage of forage and three are killed then you may get a larger nest from the fourth but it’s not going to exceed the amount from four nests.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I think what we have been seeing this year is the inevitable - BBKA, seizing an opportunity to at last (in their eyes) have a relevance and portraying themselves as the national authority on the subject, pumping out their own mantra on the whole issue. This is then followed by the usual tidal wave of self professed experts and those seeking an opportunity to bolster their own self importance, more than one in the NBU stated that this was actually hampering operations during the initial few years of sightings.
We all know how that has panned out in the past. Everything they lay their hands on seems to turn to dust - it is my fear that this will happen again.
At the moment I think sentinel apiaries/sites and not indiscriminate trapping with it's consequence of a large by catch (which we are already witnessing) is still the way forward

 

[Karol]

I do believe your potential profit from not killing off all the wasps was mentioned quite fiercely by one of the members a few years ago but let's stick to the matter in hand and not wander off down side alleys.

It's not a side alley. Vespines are an essential insect and their ecological value comes from controlling insect pests. Destroy vespines and you have to compensate by using vast amounts of pesticides to control the pests that go unpredated. Managing vespines is the best of both worlds because it can be achieved with minimal environmental harm so much so that pest controllers are now prohibited from treating wasp nests outdoors with pesticides under the biocide regulations because it can no longer be justified.

Substitue velutina for other vespines if you like. They'll mop up other insect pests and you can have the pleasure of emptying velutina out of your traps instead of native vespines much as they do in France. It won't affect me in the slightest. My participation in pest control is a philanthropic hobby which I pick up and put down as my other priorities in healthcare dictate. And if these velutina traps are as perfectly selective as claimed I'll have even less to worry about because native vespines will still need to be managed.

 

[rolande]

We all know how that has panned out in the past. Everything they lay their hands on seems to turn to dust - it is my fear that this will happen again.
At the moment I think sentinel apiaries/sites and not indiscriminate trapping with it's consequence of a large by catch (which we are already witnessing) is still the way forward

I heard that the NBU team that came to Portland handed out traps to any local bbka members who wanted one when we had our local incursion (not sure if they were overwhelmed with requests though). I seemingly didn't qualify, at least I didn't receive the offer, having let my membership lapse again, despite probably being the one local beekeeper to actually see an Asian hornet at a hive.

The problem may well be that non catch bait stations need monitoring while many of the people wanting to get involved don't have the time to do so. Sentinel locations then become the obvious course of action.

 

[JamezF]

Your scenario is only true if there is a shortage of forage. If there is a lot of forage then four queens wil thrive and there will be four times the offspring, than if they weren’t killed in the Spring. If there is a shortage of forage and three are killed then you may get a larger nest from the fourth but it’s not going to exceed the amount from four nests.

That was my initial reaction too. I'm not sure I can see any flaw in the logic thus far.

James

 

[Karol]

I think what we have been seeing this year is the inevitable - BBKA, seizing an opportunity to at last (in their eyes) have a relevance and portraying themselves as the national authority on the subject, pumping out their own mantra on the whole issue. This is then followed by the usual tidal wave of self professed experts and those seeking an opportunity to bolster their own self importance, more than one in the NBU stated that this was actually hampering operations during the initial few years of sightings.
We all know how that has panned out in the past. Everything they lay their hands on seems to turn to dust - it is my fear that this will happen again.
At the moment I think sentinel apiaries/sites and not indiscriminate trapping with it's consequence of a large by catch (which we are already witnessing) is still the way forward

Very sage counsel. The best thing that beekeepers should be doing in the UK right now is setting up and observing monitoring stations using sweet bait (I'd recommend 1 part honey, 4 parts sucrose and 5 parts water) and reporting any sightings of velutina to the NBU especially from spring onwards. Early detection gives the best chance of eradication before sexuals are produced. The incursion that we have seen this year IMHO is the consequence of the failure to control velutina in France coupled to unfavourable spring winds that carried mated queens over the channel. The NBU are doing a brilliant job and we need to see what next year brings as a consequence of their efforts to see if velutina is starting to get a foothold.

 

[roche]

Your scenario is only true if there is a shortage of forage. If there is a lot of forage then four queens wil thrive and there will be four times the offspring, than if they weren’t killed in the Spring. If there is a shortage of forage and three are killed then you may get a larger nest from the fourth but it’s not going to exceed the amount from four nests.

But the by catch of other species surely contributes to availability of forage, increasing the amount available for AH.

 

[Karol]

That was my initial reaction too. I'm not sure I can see any flaw in the logic thus far.

James

Velutina is confined geographically by the natural availability of prey which is why it is primarily a forested warm wetland insect. That's why for example it is largely constrained to coastal areas in Portugal and is only infrequently found in elevated inland terrain with an ecology more akin to the UK.

 

[JamezF]

But the by catch of other species surely contributes to availability of forage, increasing the amount available for AH.

Assuming there is a significant amount of by-catch.

James

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Assuming there is a significant amount of by-catch.

James

looking at videos posted on a facebook AH identification page of some gleeful simpleton pouring what looked like a bucket full of crabro and wasps from his traps - I would say significant - you only have to look at some of the posts on here to see how many are happy to eradicate any species other than Apis mellifera; this current panic just gives them carte blanche to carry on.

 

[Karol]

Assuming there is a significant amount of by-catch.

James

It would be very easy to film these traps at work to demonstrate bycatch escape to substantiate the claims. Can't find a single detailed video or live cam to that effect.

The problem with these traps which gets completely overlooked by those who are not of the art is that the target catch will kill any bycatch that enters the traps so phaffing with slight differences in so called escape mesh dimensions to effect selectivity (which in any event is a highly dubious claim) is irrelevant.

Strikes me that the claims for selectivity are made based on trawling through the catch. The absence of other vespines is not proof of selectivity if those vespines are no longer present ecologically to be caught in the first place.

 

[JamezF]

looking at videos posted on a facebook AH identification page of some gleeful simpleton pouring what looked like a bucket full of crabro and wasps from his traps - I would say significant - you only have to look at some of the posts on here to see how many are happy to eradicate any species other than Apis mellifera; this current panic just gives them carte blanche to carry on.

That's not a failing in the concept though. It's a failing of the idiots who don't/won't do it properly. I'll happily agree that the latter problem may be a difficult one to work around, certainly. History is probably littered with examples of good ideas that fail because people are morons.

James

 

[Phill16359]

I believe the queens are about the same size but with broader abdomens also females have 11 hoops on their antenna and males 10 the males also have two spots on their lower abdomen underbelly

 

[OldFarm]

Trapping spring queens will reduce the number of potential nests and I'd hardly consider that counter productive. Even if it does result in bigger nests the destruction of one of those will mean less hornet population in the vicinity and reduced effort in locating and destroying. Taking NO action is not an option unless you're willing to stand by and watch the invasion.

The larger nests happen when the weather is favourable: starting early, finishing late or both.

 

[OldFarm]

It's not a side alley. Vespines are an essential insect and their ecological value comes from controlling insect pests. Destroy vespines and you have to compensate by using vast amounts of pesticides to control the pests that go unpredated. Managing vespines is the best of both worlds because it can be achieved with minimal environmental harm so much so that pest controllers are now prohibited from treating wasp nests outdoors with pesticides under the biocide regulations because it can no longer be justified.

Substitue velutina for other vespines if you like. They'll mop up other insect pests and you can have the pleasure of emptying velutina out of your traps instead of native vespines much as they do in France. It won't affect me in the slightest. My participation in pest control is a philanthropic hobby which I pick up and put down as my other priorities in healthcare dictate. And if these velutina traps are as perfectly selective as claimed I'll have even less to worry about because native vespines will still need to be managed.

The design of traps has improved considerably in the last couple of years, but there is still room for improvement. Perhaps something we can all turn our thoughts to in idle moments.

Spring and autumn trapping for queens is where we have the by-catch issue. If an apiary is being heavily predated and traps are placed in the apiary, the vast majority of the catch is on target.

 

[fian]

Velutina is confined geographically by the natural availability of prey which is why it is primarily a forested warm wetland insect. That's why for example it is largely constrained to coastal areas in Portugal and is only infrequently found in elevated inland terrain with an ecology more akin to the UK.

https://es-ar.topographic-map.com/map-h2zgt/Englaterra/On this website you can compare the altitudes of England/Galicia.
In Galicia the velutina has reached altitudes of 800 m, which represents more than 70% of the surface of the United Kingdom.

 

[fian]

In Galicia something that we can call a bait/sacrifice hive is being promoted. It is a drawer with some pictures and a crown board with a hole for the feeder. A mesh is rolled over this hole (to allow the bees to exit). In the upper part, an elbow and a reduction are made to allow the cleaning of the velutina corpses. Velutinas without room to maneuver only ascend like a helicopter. When they reach the top it is impossible for them to descend and they die accumulated in the reduction.
This is a fall trap, to defend the apiary by promoting impact on a hive without passive defense (electric harp and piquera reduction).