Advice gratefully accepted.

[Jonnyl]

I was asked to take a look at two hives on a company plot. Perfect location. Lady who got the company to invest, modestly, in bees left for another job. Hives not neglected but left with rookies. Holidays etc meant that they weren't tended to at all since early-mid May. Went to have a shifty. Two poly nationals, plenty bees, honey bound. Full treatments applied. I run 14x12s and have 2 nucs spare. Rather than cut out eggs, as i cant use a test frame, im thinking of merging my nucs but how can i be sure theres no queen in there already? I know i can shake out through a QE but id rather avoid that. The only other option i can come up with it is building a new national brood frame and inserting that but it would take valuable time. Moreover those bees will be aging. Would the odds be good on uniting with my queen right nucs? I then have the issue of uniting with a 14x12 brood box. How to untangle this and reclaim my bees at a later date when all well? 14x12 box top or bottom for unite? Thanks folks.

 

[Ian123]

Guess it all depends how much you want to help or get involved!!!!!
It’s also acceptable to say not for me and leave them to it!!!!!!

There’s 2 thriving colonies why are you trying to introduce your own nucs?
And did they need treatment atm?

 

[Wilco]

Sounds like what they need is more space, not more bees.

If you're pursuing it, have the company buy another brood box for each and give them that at the bottom. Wait to see what they do and if they lay before rushing in and merging.

If you or the previous person have treated for varroa with shallows on them the honey is useless except as feed for the bees.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Two poly nationals, plenty bees, honey bound. Full treatments applied.

Plenty bees suggests they're queenright. Why treat for varroa when honey has yet to be taken?

shake out through a QE

To find the queens? Look for eggs instead.

cant use a test frame

Is that because there's so much honey you cannot get into the BB? At some point the boxes must be sorted, so take them apart now on the main flow (with the inevitable honey mess) when the work will be largely ignored, than at the end of summer, when a robbing frenzy will result.

building a new national brood frame

Saw off the bottom of a 14x12 and put that in, or cut out a patch of comb with eggs and put that in.

Would the odds be good on uniting with my queen right nucs

No.

How to untangle this and reclaim my bees at a later date when all well?

Tricky, and first you must establish the boundary of your involvement. The bees and kit belong to the company and are on company land, so any work you do will not belong to you and you ought not take anything away, unless given permission to do so in writing by someone in authority.

Suggest you agree with yourself the limit of your voluntary involvement: to check that the colonies are queenright, brood is healthy (advanced larvae for EFB) and the bees have space for honey. Use only company kit.

Agree with the company to do this work (if you wish to) but that future management must be organised asap, and that you will charge accordingly if they wish you to continue the project.

what they need is more space

I agree; main flow starting and it must be put somewhere. Stick on a second company BB, add a QX and super and wait until the flow is strong. In all likelihood bees will sort a lot of the congestion.

 

[Jonnyl]

Guess it all depends how much you want to help or get involved!!!!!
It’s also acceptable to say not for me and leave them to it!!!!!!

There’s 2 thriving colonies why are you trying to introduce your own nucs?
And did they need treatment atm?

Like most folks i guess, i like to help if i can. There's plenty bees and honey bound but without a laying queen then they can't be described as thriving. No treatments needed as they have been trickled in early winter and received apistan aroung March apparently. No trace of distressed bees, DWV etc.

 

[Jonnyl]

Sounds like what they need is more space, not more bees.

If you're pursuing it, have the company buy another brood box for each and give them that at the bottom. Wait to see what they do and if they lay before rushing in and merging.

If you or the previous person have treated for varroa with shallows on them the honey is useless except as feed for the bees.

Yes Ian, ive thought about that. I have 14x12 brood spare, perhaps i should simply decant them into it with drawn comb and see what happens then. Seems sensible to work from that point forward.

 

[Jonnyl]

Plenty bees suggests they're queenright. Why treat for varroa when honey has yet to be taken?


To find the queens? Look for eggs instead.


Is that because there's so much honey you cannot get into the BB? At some point the boxes must be sorted, so take them apart now on the main flow (with the inevitable honey mess) when the work will be largely ignored, than at the end of summer, when a robbing frenzy will result.


Saw off the bottom of a 14x12 and put that in, or cut out a patch of comb with eggs and put that in.


No.


Tricky, and first you must establish the boundary of your involvement. The bees and kit belong to the company and are on company land, so any work you do will not belong to you and you ought not take anything away, unless given permission to do so in writing by someone in authority.

Suggest you agree with yourself the limit of your voluntary involvement: to check that the colonies are queenright, brood is healthy (advanced larvae for EFB) and the bees have space for honey. Use only company kit.

Agree with the company to do this work (if you wish to) but that future management must be organised asap, and that you will charge accordingly if they wish you to continue the project.


I agree; main flow starting and it must be put somewhere. Stick on a second company BB, add a QX and super and wait until the flow is strong. In all likelihood bees will sort a lot of the congestion.

Ive no idea why they treated again at the start of spring, rookies is my best guess. They had a super on each hive, completely empty, not even foundation drawn, and its plastic foundation. All the brood frames are rammed with honey. There's no space for eggs anywhere in the brood.
You're correct, action needs taken now and i think I'll move half they're frames into a 14x12 interlaced with 14x12 frames i have spare. I'll split one of my busy hives and use the resulting QCs if required. I think thats straightforward and viable.
I understand the legal status but i think these people are trustworthy and wouldn't try to stiff me for kit. At least i hope so. Lol.
Thanks for your help.

 

[ericbeaumont]

All the brood frames are rammed with honey

Or take out and extract a few DN combs and and replace tomorrow. Bees won't mind.

why they treated again at the start of spring

Reasonable if the previous autumn treatment was early but winter brood elevated varroa numbers by spring.

split one of my busy hives

Not sure why this is necessary. To re-queen these rammed colonies?

these people are trustworthy and wouldn't try to stiff me for kit

Maybe, but though verbal assurances are easy at the start, that could all change when the asset value of the honey & bees becomes known.

Have an exit plan and/or offer to run them on a contract. After all, it's a fair bit of free work to get them queenright, extract the honey, then feed & treat for winter.

 

[ericbeaumont]

without a laying queen then they can't be described as thriving

Sure, but until you see eggs - even just a patch - you won't know if they're queenright or have swarmed themselves to exhaustion.

In the absence of eggs, put in a test frame or piece of comb. Addition of drawn comb will give her the opportunity to lay, so give that rather than foundation.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Looks like you've just assumed they are Q- rather than found out/confirmed they are.
First priority is to make laying space in the brood box - as Eric - just extract a few frames and replace immediately and at the same time, slap some supers on.
Then wait a week or two to see what transpires before jumping to more conclusions.

 

[Wilco]

I would urge you not to go ahead with merging colonies/nucs yet. If you don't merge, you haven't lost anything yourself and the company may still have two viable hives. If you do merge then you do risk losing. Either get another deep/extra deep underneath the clogged brood or extract some frames, as others have said. There's no need for decanting.

The advice here regarding sorting a contract before getting too deep is sound and I and others on here can advise on this if you need.

If shallows are undrawn, get some frames of wax foundation in there/dip the plastic stuff in beeswax too.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I was asked to take a look at two hives on a company plot. Perfect location. Lady who got the company to invest, modestly, in bees left for another job. Hives not neglected but left with rookies. Holidays etc meant that they weren't tended to at all since early-mid May. Went to have a shifty. Two poly nationals, plenty bees, honey bound. Full treatments applied. I run 14x12s and have 2 nucs spare. Rather than cut out eggs, as i cant use a test frame, im thinking of merging my nucs but how can i be sure theres no queen in there already? I know i can shake out through a QE but id rather avoid that. The only other option i can come up with it is building a new national brood frame and inserting that but it would take valuable time. Moreover those bees will be aging. Would the odds be good on uniting with my queen right nucs? I then have the issue of uniting with a 14x12 brood box. How to untangle this and reclaim my bees at a later date when all well? 14x12 box top or bottom for unite? Thanks folks.

Are you overthinking the situation? I would speak to the company first with a view to them buying a couple of poly hives plus supers, or at least a couple of polynucs with sufficient frames and foundation. You or the rookies should be able to assemble the frames and foundation pdq. Unless there's a stock shortage Abelo can take an order by phone and ship then you'll have the equipment in a couple of days. If you need to introduce test comb use the cookie cutter method. The state of/timing of varroa treatment is not particularly relevant at the current state of play so unless you've reason to suspect an excessive varroa load I'd defer looking at that until autumn. You may need to shoulder the burden of educating the rookies but some form of compensation for your time would be warranted.
In an absolute emergency of total nectar block you could take out a couple of outer (hopefully capped) stores frames and insert a couple of super frames to provide work for the bees short term. The bees will most likely extend new comb off the bottom rail. At the end of the day don't panic

 

[Jonnyl]

Or take out and extract a few DN combs and and replace tomorrow. Bees won't mind.


Reasonable if the previous autumn treatment was early but winter brood elevated varroa numbers by spring.


Not sure why this is necessary. To re-queen these rammed colonies?


Maybe, but though verbal assurances are easy at the start, that could all change when the asset value of the honey & bees becomes known.

Have an exit plan and/or offer to run them on a contract. After all, it's a fair bit of free work to get them queenright, extract the honey, then feed & treat for winter.

I have spare supers will spare comb, im thinking to place a super on each hive, if there's a queen she'll lay in the super? If no eggs in 3 days then unite with a nuc into a 14x12 brood.

I very much doubt they would be aware of mite loads etc. Still, no harm done by an additional treatment.

Id rather not requeen at all, if they have their own then great but im not sure they have, if she got mated, that she is a good queen. Moreover im not sure how old these bees now are and their ability to raise brood if given QCs. Its all about queen status.

Yes, i agree that there should be a clear agreement, preferably witnessed etc, but I'll make a judgement call on that. The bees are my primary concern but I'll proceed with caution.

Cheers

 

[Jonnyl]

Sure, but until you see eggs - even just a patch - you won't know if they're queenright or have swarmed themselves to exhaustion.

In the absence of eggs, put in a test frame or piece of comb. Addition of drawn comb will give her the opportunity to lay, so give that rather than foundation.

I think thats the optimum way forward EricB. A spare super on top and leave them be for 2-3 days. Thanks.

 

[Jonnyl]

Looks like you've just assumed they are Q- rather than found out/confirmed they are.
First priority is to make laying space in the brood box - as Eric - just extract a few frames and replace immediately and at the same time, slap some supers on.
Then wait a week or two to see what transpires before jumping to more conclusions.

I confess that is my initial reaction JBM. With the dates being so vague im tilted to believe there isnt a queen, or unmated/poorly mated queen but of course i need to confirm this. They had a super of undrawn plastic foundation above one hive which they haven't attempted to draw. My instinct is that they would have used the super to provide space below and they haven't.
You and EricB are right, more space to begin with (drawn super) and wait but do you recommend 2-3 weeks? I was looking more to 2-3 days as im concerned as to their age JBM. I have no standard frames, spare or otherwise, so the drawn super idea is winking at me. Seems a fair approach initially.

 

[Jonnyl]

I would urge you not to go ahead with merging colonies/nucs yet. If you don't merge, you haven't lost anything yourself and the company may still have two viable hives. If you do merge then you do risk losing. Either get another deep/extra deep underneath the clogged brood or extract some frames, as others have said. There's no need for decanting.

The advice here regarding sorting a contract before getting too deep is sound and I and others on here can advise on this if you need.

If shallows are undrawn, get some frames of wax foundation in there/dip the plastic stuff in beeswax too.

Yes Wilco. I agree 100%. Thats the avenue i will take. A spare drawn super on each with no QE. You think below the BB? I was leaning to above but will it really matter in this instance?
The contract thing i will discuss later today.
That was the first time ive even seen plastic foundation. Not for me. It instantly turned me off. Im a dinosaur in that regard.

 

[Jonnyl]

Are you overthinking the situation? I would speak to the company first with a view to them buying a couple of poly hives plus supers, or at least a couple of polynucs with sufficient frames and foundation. You or the rookies should be able to assemble the frames and foundation pdq. Unless there's a stock shortage Abelo can take an order by phone and ship then you'll have the equipment in a couple of days. If you need to introduce test comb use the cookie cutter method. The state of/timing of varroa treatment is not particularly relevant at the current state of play so unless you've reason to suspect an excessive varroa load I'd defer looking at that until autumn. You may need to shoulder the burden of educating the rookies but some form of compensation for your time would be warranted.
In an absolute emergency of total nectar block you could take out a couple of outer (hopefully capped) stores frames and insert a couple of super frames to provide work for the bees short term. The bees will most likely extend new comb off the bottom rail. At the end of the day don't panic

Over analysing is one of my many character flaws JohnG.
Im going to provide a super each, drawn, and wait. Beeks do a lot of waiting. Lol.
I just got a delivery from thornes and they sent a catalogue so I'll circle what they need in that. They can adapt it for an actual order from Abelo for what they need etc and get on with it. That's their concern.
They did mention training for staff and a budget for it. 1 hour per month for 4 months is what they had agreed with the original beek before he disappeared. £250. I acknowledged this but didnt comment as i was in amongst the bees etc and its not important to me at this stage although im aware its prudent to address the whole issue as its my kit being used now and we're all well aware of the prices of supers and BBs. I'll touch on this afternoon. Thanks for your help.

 

[ericbeaumont]

if there's a queen she'll lay in the super? If no eggs in 3 days then unite with a nuc into a 14x12 brood.

Yes and no!

Yes, add a super and wait for her to lay in it. No to a unite, because there may be virgins running around, or a just-mated queen, and you will waste a queen. I'd add the super on top because it's less work to check for eggs.

2-3 days

Agree, keep checking but wait three weeks before concluding they're both queenless. In the meantime, add a frame of larvae or patch of comb as described earlier, and check for EQCs after a few days.

That's their concern.

No, yours, because they're not beekeepers and will cock it up. Seems that staff training is involved, and for someone slight, or with perhaps, a physical disablity, a lighter Abelo poly National set-up is ideal, as well as saving expense against Thorne cedar. This Abelo combo + four supers will serve well.

1 hour per month for 4 months is what they had agreed with the original beek before he disappeared. £250

Not a lot! This will serve to give staff a shot of R&R, because it's not enough to train them to be beekeepers. To embed learning in a short season would require at least an hour a week, and anyway, a third of that hour will be spent faffing around putting on suits and lighting smokers.

£60/hour for training is reasonable, but you will find that an hour will not be enough (and will over-run) and bear in mind that you'll be there 30 minutes before to prep and 30 after to tidy up, so 2 hours would be a realistic minimum for 6 months between March and August.

Add your weekly seasonal checks and include one-hour early and late season checks (to add fondant, check storm damage, vermin damage, super early, split early) for the other 6 months. Add time for kit prep. and frame making, cleaning and storage and so on. Identify a storage depot.

its my kit being used now

Understandable in the short-term, but sterilise it when taking it away, esp. as you don't know the disease status of the company colonies.

 

[andywakeman]

If shallows are undrawn, get some frames of wax foundation in there/dip the plastic stuff in beeswax too.

I'm a newbie, so sorry if I'm over stepping, but is this the problem with the supers not being built on? They've just put the plastic foundation in without coating in beeswax, so bees just 'see' a plastic wall rather than foundation? And, yes, even as a newbie, I hate the idea of plastic foundation. I own a 3d printer, so could print my own at next to no cost, but I'd rather have beeswax foundation.

Andy

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

is this the problem with the supers not being built on? They've just put the plastic foundation in without coating in beeswax,

yes - they need to be coated in wax first.