My Swienty/Paynes update

Swienty box has come through nearly a year's service relatively unscathed.
The bees have chewed the Paynes box. I could hear them munching all last summer but couldn't see what they were doing. They have eaten away at the inside edge under the frames and have chamfered(sp) a large amount of the front and back of the bottom of the box. One more season and they would have chewed their way out. Not pleased. They are in a wooden box now.

Erica - what floor and entrance block arrangement did they have?

I've got a few Paynes 14x12 boxes (and nucs) and thus far the only chewing that I've noticed was done during the summer - and I think was a result of my entrance arrangements.
I'd made up my own restrictor/mouseguard before Paynes produced theirs, and I pulled it forward at one side ("door ajar") to create a larger (but not wide open) midseason entrance. And the bees chewed the underedge of the brood box to try and enlarge the door ... It showed up because the first thing they removed was the paint, revealing the paler plastic beneath.
I had the beginnings of something similar with a polynuc, where I had pinned the entrance disc so as to half close the entrance against robbers and wasps. And the bees decided to try and enlarge the restricted entrance that I had given them.

I'm wondering if you had the "just four small holes" Paynes mouseguard in place for too long, and, unable to extend those holes the hard plastic block, were trying to give themselves a more appropriate entrance in the best way they could?

Bad news.

Do Paines claim a minimum polystyrene density?

If so, I would be checking out that chewed part and returning it to them for replacement, if found less dense than the spec. Most good boxes are a minimum of 100kg/m^3. If the spec was lower than that, I would either not buy or expect to take any resultant damage 'on the chin'.

I avoided one certain polynuc for that very reason - that was about 5 years ago.

RAB

Mine chew just about everything ... Kingspan (if they can get at it), plastic bag I had filled with straw to insulate the spare space in my long hive, rough texture on my home made frames they smooth out, the cling film on the fondant I put in to my smallest colony, they even chewed the tapes on my beegym ! The only thing they don't seem to chew is the Paynes Poly hives... however, the inside of the poly got a couple of coats of my home made propolis varnish before I started using them ... perhaps that's what prevents it ?

perhaps that's what prevents it ?

NOOO! The proper density of the injection mouldings is the simple answer. Poly boxes should last thirty years without being chewed. Bees don't chew timber hives (unless rotting), don't chew proper high density mouldings. So why should a manufacturer get away with a sub-standard product or specification?

RAB

oliver90owner said:

perhaps that's what prevents it ?

NOOO! The proper density of the injection mouldings is the simple answer. Poly boxes should last thirty years without being chewed. Bees don't chew timber hives (unless rotting), don't chew proper high density mouldings. So why should a manufacturer get away with a sub-standard product or specification?

RAB

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You are probably right .. but I've got three Paynes polys all bought at different times and none of them have been chewed so there must be some inconsistency in production if that is the cause... or my bee varnish hides the inconsistency ?

Yes, i recall there have been reports of Sweintee boxes being chewed - one dodgy batch, I expect.

I would guess that your boxes are of adequate - or almost adequate - density. Your varnish may have hidden a fault. But either way, people buying a product such as this should not end up with it being chewed away by the bees.

It is is a well known fact that higher density EPS is required; we know that low density EPS is destroyed by chewing. Most advertise as a minimum of 100kg per cubic metre, that being a 'safe' density. EPS Injection moulding costs more as the density rises. Cheaper is not better if it gets chewed away in a couple of seasons or less.

Shoddy production or too low specifications should not be tolerated. Simple as that.

RAB

oliver90owner said:

It is is a well known fact that higher density EPS is required; we know that low density EPS is destroyed by chewing. Most advertise as a minimum of 100kg per cubic metre, that being a 'safe' density. EPS Injection moulding costs more as the density rises. Cheaper is not better if it gets chewed away in a couple of seasons or less.

Shoddy production or too low specifications should not be tolerated. Simple as that.

RAB

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Totally agree ... one of my beekeeping friends decided to make up a poly 'Nuc' by cutting up and putting back together a couple of former fish boxes that had contained frozen prawns as they were just about the right size. Total waste of time ...inside of 2 weeks they chewed holes in the side, along the top edge, around the entrance ... clearly just doing it for fun, no reason for where they chewed - except possibly trying to enlarge their space (Stupid bees !) The boxes were very low density polystyrene ...

I had been tempted to do the same (as a DIY recycling freak cheapskate !) ... glad I didn't bother.

Curiously the higher density polystyrene is a better insulator!.

I have noticed that our bees will put a light chamfer on all polystyrene hives where the edges are sharp. These bees of ours will even attempt chamfering this around the entrance of the wooden hive!
However Alumininum foil tape appears to be never chewed.

Dunno about Bees eating poly hives. A friend of mine hates poly hives with a passion. He took two up to the moors for the heather crop a few years back and the sheep ate 'em!.....

On the Paynes poly Nucs, no problem with mine to date with bees, but I have not sheep tested yet.

Thanks, everybody, for your thoughts

itma said:

Erica - what floor and entrance block arrangement did they have?

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The box was on a Paynes floor with a wooden entrance block.

derekm said:

I have noticed that our bees will put a light chamfer on all polystyrene hives where the edges are sharp. [/B]

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That's very interesting. That's exactly where mine re-engineered their home.
Also, they are very sticky bees and they put propolis everywhere. The top was a nightmare to clean. As I said I have abandoned a poly home for them and put them into a cedar box.

Curiously the higher density polystyrene is a better insulator!.

Links? I was under the apparent misillusion that the opposite was true. It is the entrained air/gas which is the insulator, not the styrene. Solid polystyrene has no air pockets at all, so your suggestion does not hold to the nth degree for sure.

derekm said:

However Alumininum foil tape appears to be never chewed.

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It makes their fillings buzz derek and they don't like that

oliver90owner said:

Curiously the higher density polystyrene is a better insulator!.

Links? I was under the apparent misillusion that the opposite was true. It is the entrained air/gas which is the insulator, not the styrene. Solid polystyrene has no air pockets at all, so your suggestion does not hold to the nth degree for sure.

Click to expand...

Yes i was surprised by this one. (obviously I'm talking about EPS not the solid polymer)
there are many references this is one
http://www.nist.gov/srm/upload/SP260-175-2.pdf
page 23.

Another
http://zenonpanel.com.mk/mk/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/Thermal-Insulation-properties.PDF

Erichalfbee said:

Thanks, everybody, for your thoughts


The box was on a Paynes floor with a wooden entrance block.





That's very interesting. That's exactly where mine re-engineered their home.
Also, they are very sticky bees and they put propolis everywhere. The top was a nightmare to clean. As I said I have abandoned a poly home for them and put them into a cedar box.

Click to expand...

Ours dont propolise the ally facing of Recticel but propolise the frames... In the poly hives its everything

Yes i was surprised by this one. (obviously I'm talking about EPS not the solid polymer)

Yes, but... where are the results for 100kg/m^3?

There is a more than subtle difference between insulation properties in the range of 20 - 40kg /m^3 and at densities approaching the solid polymer the thermal conductivity will converge. I will still expect the cross-over point is at less than 100kg/m^3, so I don't accept your links which are based on a great deal of extrapolation

EPS is lower conductivity (a better insulator) than either free air or solid PS.

Hence there is some sort of a U-shaped curve.

The question then becomes where the minimum conductivity lies.
I don't believe the references given provide an answer.


However, the question is entirely moot (arguing for the sake of it), since very high density EPS (as used by Paynes, certainly on their recent production) is going to be preferred on purely mechanical strength and toughness grounds.


Has anyone played Archimedes and measured the actual density of samples of real production from the various manufacturers?

On the Swienty front, quick question. I know they sell these as 'bottom' bee space if you use the rails... I've actually not bothered with them on the brood box and found the top bee space much easier to manage the bees in. I have also been using the framesless QE (which I know some people have poopooed but I quite like them. My question is, with the QE in place, there is then no beespace for the supers above if you continue to use BBS, have people used BBS on the brood and then TBS on the supers and if so has there been any problems with brace comb between shallows and QE?

Roola said:

... I have also been using the framesless QE (which I know some people have poopooed but I quite like them. My question is, with the QE in place, there is then no beespace for the supers above if you continue to use BBS, have people used BBS on the brood and then TBS on the supers and if so has there been any problems with brace comb between shallows and QE?

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I think it depends on how stiff (saggy) your sheet (spelling?) QX might be ...


I believe the reason for using the Swienty boxes as TBS is that they lack the 'undercut' to provide bottom bee space above the frame lugs in the box beneath. Using the supers as bbs therefore 'encourages' lifting off all the supers as one to get access for brood inspections. OK for the weightlifters among us ...

Well, I use mine TBS with a framed excluder.....no problems yet.
By the way......I moved a strong colony temporarily into a Paynes box just 10 days ago and I can hear munching from them too.................................