Over wintering indoors?

I understand that bees use less stores if they stay above 6 degrees in winter, and this set me thinking. Has anyone kept bees in the cellar? Potentially a crazy idea I know-but is there any possibility that it could work. Or perhaps less radical-in the chicken shed?

I am not proposing doing this this year, but am interested to know whether it is something to think more about.

You mean like in a bee shed?

http://lenny.smugmug.com/Hobbies/Beekeeping-Photos/2583594_SqvVjP/141557925_DMvWq

Canadian cousin moves hives to unheated cellar below house ... Nova Scotia.

Mainly to save colony from ravages of bears !

There are pros and cons for everything.

First of all how many people winter their hives indoors in the UK? The landscape is not exactly littered with bee houses, and there may well be good financial reasons for this. Cost of construction against improved over wintering.

Bees winter best as naturally as possible and in the UK that so far seems to be in hives located outside..

There are difficulties with wintering bees which are too warm though not (oddly) the same issues with cold bees.

Never as simple as it looks sadly.

PH

Poly Hive said:

....
Bees winter best as naturally as possible and in the UK that so far seems to be in hives located outside..

There are difficulties with wintering bees which are too warm though not (oddly) the same issues with cold bees.

Never as simple as it looks sadly.

PH

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What is "naturally as possible" is a subject is worthy of discussion in its own right

They have whole barn-fulls (climate controlled) in Canada. They sweep the dead bees up off the floor, sometimes 2-3 cm deep? There are reports on the net.

Just search honey bees canada winter and you will ikely find a deal of info.

My argument is that they are basically wild creatures not pets. Let them get on with it. We interfere too much as it is.........hence the reason we have foul brood and varoa.

Tin hat!

We are responsible for foulbrood? As much as we are for cholera and polio.

Varroa I will agree on though that is mans fault. As in the cross over from Cerana. Otherwise for Cerana it would come into the above bracket as a natural hazard.

PH

robertyboberty said:

I understand that bees use less stores if they stay above 6 degrees in winter, and this set me thinking. ...

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Really?

I had understood that a steady 3C environment gave minimal stores consumption.

If they are so warm that they come out of their cluster, stores consumption increases significantly.

Poly Hive said:

We are responsible for foulbrood? As much as we are for cholera and polio.

Varroa I will agree on though that is mans fault. As in the cross over from Cerana. Otherwise for Cerana it would come into the above bracket as a natural hazard.

PH

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vis Cholera that is a human disease that is exacerbated by human organisation or rather the lack of it. googol Sir Joseph William Bazalgette,

itma said:

Really?

I had understood that a steady 3C environment gave minimal stores consumption.

If they are so warm that they come out of their cluster, stores consumption increases significantly.

Click to expand...

That while accurate is misleading as that is a local minima in the metabolic curve. If you keep the colony warmer than 20C the stores usage go down as well.

It is a easy and simple to keep bees well above 20C in their hives while its -25C outside and use a lot less than 12kg of stores for the entire winter. Why the Canadians dont do it and are then are happy to supply 45kg to 60kg of stores I dont know...

They are wedded to having top entrances, ostensibly to keep them above the snow yet they place the hives almost directly on the ground... Doh

derekm said:

It is a easy and simple to keep bees well above 20C in their hives while its -25C outside and use a lot less than 12kg of stores for the entire winter. Why the Canadians dont do it and are then are happy to supply 45kg to 60kg of stores I dont know...

They are wedded to having top entrances, ostensibly to keep them above the snow yet they place the hives almost directly on the ground... Doh

Click to expand...

Sounds like they could do with an expert like you to educate them on how best to over winter their bees in Canada.

Ian Stepplar may appreciate your advice...
http://www.stepplerfarms.com/gallery2Stepplerhoney.html

derekm said:

That while accurate is misleading as that is a local minima in the metabolic curve. If you keep the colony warmer than 20C the stores usage go down as well.

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The graphs in this doc (after Seeley, figure 2) show a metabolic rate peak at 20C, it declines over that but not to the same level as at 5C. Big advantage of 5C is that the barn doesn't need a lot of external energy input to maintain the temperature:

Keeping wintering buildings at 5ºC is tricky because: 1) colonies give off heat and 2) outdoor temperatures fluctuate. In the late fall the heat produced by the bees is greater than the amount required to keep the room temperature at 5ºC. The excess heat is removed by exhausting the warm storage air and replacing it with cool outdoor air

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Practically, if the whole barn were at an ambient temperatures over 20C the barn would not only need more insulation and external heating but you would have brooding and a barn full of flying bees.

robertyboberty said:

I understand that bees use less stores if they stay above 6 degrees in winter, and this set me thinking.

Click to expand...

alanf said:

The graphs in this doc (after Seeley, figure 2) show a metabolic rate peak at 20C, ...

Click to expand...

So Seeley considers that the OP needs a fundamental rethink ... above about 10C the stores consumption goes up very steeply.


/ One heck of a document, there seems to be plenty there to think about. Thanks!

alanf said:

The graphs in this doc (after Seeley, figure 2) show a metabolic rate peak at 20C, it declines over that but not to the same level as at 5C. Big advantage of 5C is that the barn doesn't need a lot of external energy input to maintain the temperature:



Practically, if the whole barn were at an ambient temperatures over 20C the barn would not only need more insulation and external heating but you would have brooding and a barn full of flying bees.

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You dont need any external energy or a barn with heating to maintain a hive internal temp at 20c to 30c
and you dont get brooding bees and you only get a very few scouts sniffing about
Bees evolved with highly insulated nests (trees) so why would it be a "problem"

itma said:

So Seeley considers that the OP needs a fundamental rethink ... above about 10C the stores consumption goes up very steeply.


/ One heck of a document, there seems to be plenty there to think about. Thanks!

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if you read the research you will see this phenomemon varies with the size of colony

derekm said:

Bees evolved with highly insulated nests (trees) so why would it be a "problem"

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Or caves, and some just build open nests from the branches of trees or over hanging rocks, some just nest near the ground in the Himalayas during the winter.

itma said:

...
/ One heck of a document, there seems to be plenty there to think about. Thanks!

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The author is greatly in favour of top and bottom "entrances" to permit venting of excess moisture.
I note that the research cited in support of that dates from 1982 - which would certainly imply solid floors. And should not be used to support top entrances (or matchsticks) with OMFs in our (usually!) relatively mild winters (compared to most of North America).

derekm said:

if you read the research you will see this phenomemon varies with the size of colony

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No surprise surely? The surface/volume ratio difference between a small and large cluster is going to change a lot of the precise detail.

Hivemaker. said:

Sounds like they could do with an expert like you to educate them on how best to over winter their bees in Canada.

Ian Stepplar may appreciate your advice...
http://www.stepplerfarms.com/gallery2Stepplerhoney.html

Click to expand...

group think is very hard to overcome