oxalic acid and glycerine mix

[mbc]

Does anybody know if a J-cloth would be similar to shop towel?

No, the idea with the shop towel (paper towels normally on rolls)is that the bees chew them up and cart them out, the oxalic acid coming in to contact with the bees/varroa during this carting out process. J cloths would cause the bees problems trying to remove.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

According to Fernando, one of the guys to do with the development of the cardboard strips, and one who is named by Randy as giving him advice...
he has this to say about the cardboard strips.....

The shop towels may or may not present another problem if used in late summer and during the autumn, one being they may hinder any feeding, especially if using contact feeders, and could be ignored by any bees prone to having a smaller nest with a large honey arc above.

I hadn't thought about the clash with autumn feeding - maybe they don't do that in California. The treatment with the towels seems to want about 6+ weeks for the towels to be removed by the bees so you'd really want the feeding finished by early September to get the treatment on and finished by late October. That might be an issue with some areas of the country but down here in the south west, it should not be a problem. There is so much ivy in the Autumn that my bees only take a small amount of Thymolated sugar solution - the rest of their stores is from ivy. I use rapid feeders so I could make a small hole in the towels to allow access, if ever this treatment could be done legally in the UK.

What is needed is a academic institution recognised for its expertise in bee research to test it out in our climate and see if it works and if excess OA ends up in the honey if the treatment is applied when the supers are on. Any institutions spring to mind?

CVB

 

[mbc]

The trial had the towels placed between the boxes on double deep langstroths, not a very common configuration for UK hives at treatment time. I think I go along with HM's assessment that strips hanging in brood might be the way to go here as towels placed on top are likely to be ignored.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Easy enough to make using the 2 or 3mm thick absorbent beer mat cardboard, cut to size and bent over rows of rails, just a bit wider than the frame top bars, and dipped into a tank of the oxalic/glycerine long enough to fully absorb the mixture and then suspended above the same tank to drip dry.
Then heat seal the strips into plastic bags until needed.

 

[SDM]

I keep seeing the 100°c temp being quoted. This is the temp used for rapid production of formic acid in a laboratory. Not the temp at which oxalic acid in glycerin begins to decompose to formic acid. With glycerin as a catalyst. Hive temp will give a sustained release of formic acid. Which if you've ever used it you will know is more than sufficient temp for the resulting formic acid to fume and penetrate.

 

[mbc]

Formic acid varroa treatments rely on building enough vapour pressure to overcome the varroa. My back of a fag packet scribblings don't give the oxalic / glycerine mix a chance in hell of building enough formic acid vapour pressure to be effective, it is contact with the oxalic acid which makes this treatment effective (as far as I've understood it).

 

[Hivemaker.]

I keep seeing the 100°c temp being quoted. This is the temp used for rapid production of formic acid in a laboratory. Not the temp at which oxalic acid in glycerin begins to decompose to formic acid. With glycerin as a catalyst. Hive temp will give a sustained release of formic acid. Which if you've ever used it you will know is more than sufficient temp for the resulting formic acid to fume and penetrate.

I would mix at the 40-50c temperature as used by Fernando for the cardboard strips, it gives off no odour of formic acid, which is quite a strong odour and would soon be noticed if it were there... good if it did though, but would need to reliably evaporate over 7g of 60% or more of formic acid per brood chamber every 24 hours for over 14 days to be of much use as an effective varroa treatment, and it couldn't do this because the weight is not there in the first place.

 

[SDM]

But why glycerin if that's the case and why not water ?

 

[Hivemaker.]

But why glycerin if that's the case and why not water ?

Because oxalic and water impregnated strips would not be an effective treatment.

 

[SDM]

I understand that it isn't effective, but since MBC and I assume you as well are suggesting a contact method of working, why wouldn't water work just as well ?

 

[Hivemaker.]

I understand that it isn't effective, but since MBC and I assume you as well are suggesting a contact method of working, why wouldn't water work just as well ?

Because the water quickly evaporates from the strip, so the mixture is not readily transferred among the bees, rather than stay moist for up to two months like glycerine does, and this sticky carrier being transferred among the bees on their bodies during this extended treatment..

 

[SDM]

So vegetable oil or any hygroscopic medium would do ?

 

[Beefriendly]

So vegetable oil or any hygroscopic medium would do ?

Only if Oxalic acid will dissolve in it.

 

[mbc]

So vegetable oil or any hygroscopic medium would do ?

Maybe, do the trials if you're that interested, the Argentinian's and Randy Oliver et all have already identified glycerine as a cheap ,readily available and effective carying substrate, sometimes reinventing the wheel is more work than is necessary.

 

[Finman]

But why glycerin if that's the case and why not water ?

There are 2 water methods

1) 1-3% oxalic acid water spray

2) 1:1 sugar + water + 3,5% oxalic acid.
.

And we know how they act
.

 

[SDM]

Only if Oxalic acid will dissolve in it.

Which it won't in veg. oil.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

I've done some sums and I reckon a 4 strip treatment (9 strips from an A3 piece of 2mm board, 20ml of Glycerine and 10g of OA) would cost about £1.20 if using generic Oxalic Acid or £7.90 if you're in the UK using government-approved Api-Bioxal.

CVB

 

[Beefriendly]

if you're in the UK using government-approved Api-Bioxal.

CVB

Efff government approved.
UK Urban guerrilla founder

 

[charlievictorbravo]

....
UK Urban guerrilla founder

or a scofflaw, as Randy Oliver describes himself.

CVB

 

[betterbee]

Would a strip of oxalic/glycerine mix on a covered alighting board work,bees walk on it and carry into hive ?