Winter consumption during winter

[Finman]

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I have Finnish winter consumption figures from last winter.
Last winter was very mild. We did not even had snow on ground.

Weighing hives outside is not simple task because rain water goes into wood structures and during frost period breathing moisture stays inside hive and melts away during mild weather.


However, the consumption of 4 hives during 5 months period were this kind

20.10.2013 - 20.3.2014

This is time when bees do not fly from hive, and they have no brooding.

kg/month
1,8
1,9
2,0
2,9

Outside this group one balance hive was in cellar wintering, and it consumed 2 kg/month.
.

 

[Finman]

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Measuring outside, difficulties

Consumtion in January tells that there are rain, wetting, drying, frosting, melting and what ever.
Conditions to measure is not simple.

Here are consumptiom of same hives from half January to half February

3,6 kg/month
2,8
2
1,2
0,8

Results seemed quite mad compared to 5 months results..

 

[oliver90owner]

Only 2kg/month? That is a rediculous figure if we believe that a colony with brood box and full super of stores will only last until Christmas!

You must have got your figures wrong? It must be about 10kg or more per month? But, err, I expect them to survive the whole winter on 20kg. So how do those different results/expectations come about?

You actually MEASURED the stores usage and they (them, the others) have not a clue of what has really been used or what is required 'after Christmas'. So I, for one, will go for your results, not theirs.

But we must remember that bees still brooding will use more stores than when simply clustering. We also should know that the bees do not fly for no return - they are a little more clever than to waste energy.

Also, the longer the autumnal weather lasts, the shorter (hopefully) the winter clustering period.

So not a totally simple equation of 10kg/month from October to April. The beekeeper needs to have some thought input - that of applying hefting results to current requirements.

Is that really too difficult?

 

[MikeT]

Added thread by mistake

 

[richardbees]

know that the bees do not fly for no return

... don't they go out for a poo ?

I'm most surprised that Finland didn't have snow on the ground.

 

[Finman]

know that the bees do not fly for no return

... don't they go out for a poo ?

in Ochtober and in March, but not between that, 4.5 months.
If someone comes out, it is sick and come out to die.

 

[Finman]

.
We have some hives again measuring winter consumption, but just now figures make no sense.

http://koti.tnnet.fi/web144/vaakapesa/selaa2.php

Like here
http://koti.tnnet.fi/web144/vaakapesa/selaa2.php?vuosi=2015&kunta=1

11.09 - 21.11. weight loss is -2,7 kg in 2,5 months

Hive and bottom is wooden and measuring in moist environment does not give real figures. 200 g consumption in 3 weeks is not true.

Put your own balance and try how it really goes.

 

[user 6228]

.
We have some hives again measuring winter consumption, but just now figures make no sense.

http://koti.tnnet.fi/web144/vaakapesa/selaa2.php

Like here
http://koti.tnnet.fi/web144/vaakapesa/selaa2.php?vuosi=2015&kunta=1

11.09 - 21.11. weight loss is -2,7 kg in 2,5 months

Hive and bottom is wooden and measuring in moist environment does not give real figures. 200 g consumption in 3 weeks is not true.

Put your own balance and try how it really goes.

yes you really need a free draining non- water absorbent hive to make meaningful measurements.

With a wooden hive its further complicated by the wood increasing its thermal conductivityas well as its weight.

 

[Finman]

yes you really need a free draining non- water absorbent hive to make meaningful measurements.

With a wooden hive its further complicated by the wood increasing its thermal conductivityas well as its weight.

These are hobby level measurements. and results tell something as you can see.

Thermal conductivity in theory...... Yes, moisture is present in practical life, when hives are made from plywood and from wood. But all our hives are insulated and it ensures that there are food enough from September up to April.
Normal hive makes 10 litres water from their winter stores during winter.
Water vapour makes ice inside polyhives too during long frost periods and that is beehive life.
.

 

[oliver90owner]

With a wooden hive its further complicated by the wood increasing its thermal conductivityas well as its weight.

With a good strong colony in a well organised hive, it is also complicated by the relatively impervious film of propolis deposited on the inner surfaces, as well as any surface coatings applied to the outside by the beekeeper.

Oh, and also by the necessary cleansing flights of the bees, which are undertaken on warmer days in the UK (compared to the longer periods of confinement for those in a climate such as Finman's). Yes, cleansing flights do have a 'gain' or 'return' - far better for the bees to defecate outside than inside, especially if there is any nosema infection at all, and/or because some unthinking beekeeper has put much of their winter stores beneath them!

 

[user 6228]

With a wooden hive its further complicated by the wood increasing its thermal conductivityas well as its weight.

With a good strong colony in a well organised hive, it is also complicated by the relatively impervious film of propolis deposited on the inner surfaces, as well as any surface coatings applied to the outside by the beekeeper.

Oh, and also by the necessary cleansing flights of the bees, which are undertaken on warmer days in the UK (compared to the longer periods of confinement for those in a climate such as Finman's). Yes, cleansing flights do have a 'gain' or 'return' - far better for the bees to defecate outside than inside, especially if there is any nosema infection at all, and/or because some unthinking beekeeper has put much of their winter stores beneath them!

in this case I was thinking of external moisture i.e. Rain causing the change.
but the internal source is very interesting , I have been trying to find measurements on the permiability of propolis, but cant find any. Have you seen any?

 

[Finman]

in this case I was thinking of external moisture i.e. Rain causing the change.
but the internal source is very interesting , I have been trying to find measurements on the permiability of propolis, but cant find any. Have you seen any?

Yes, in autumn when there are +days, rain affects clearly to the weight of hives. Results are so strange inside one month.

When we have about -15C - -20C, we can see from balance that moisture will freeze inside the hive. Then happens sudden drop when days are on plus side.

After all that, natural environment is too complex to get right answers to exact questions. But however, it makes no sense to start emergency feeding when hive is full of stores. But these guys do not perhaps give up from their habits, what ever they get and they deliver their "feed feed fever" to another beeks.

Even we have those guys here who believe that bees consume more in warm weather. But it is not so. Cold winter kills hives more than warm winter.

But lack of knowledge gives more space to dreaming and that is a great value in a hobby beekeeping.

 

[user 6228]

Yes, in autumn when there are +days, rain affects clearly to the weight of hives. Results are so strange inside one month.

When we have about -15C - -20C, we can see from balance that moisture will freeze inside the hive. Then happens sudden drop when days are on plus side.

After all that, natural environment is too complex to get right answers to exact questions. But however, it makes no sense to start emergency feeding when hive is full of stores. But these guys do not perhaps give up from their habits, what ever they get and they deliver their "feed feed fever" to another beeks.

Even we have those guys here who believe that bees consume more in warm weather. But it is not so. Cold winter kills hives more than warm winter.

But lack of knowledge gives more space to dreaming and that is a great value in a hobby beekeeping.

The increase in conducitivity from dry to wet is not a few % but a doubling of the thermal conductivity. A really good reason to add to the othersfor keeping wooden hives in some sort of cuddy

Derek


nb: Cuddy - shelter on a boat open to the stern

 

[Little John]

When we have about -15C - -20C, we can see from balance that moisture will freeze inside the hive.
[...]
Even we have those guys here who believe that bees consume more in warm weather. But it is not so. Cold winter kills hives more than warm winter.

I've lost count of the number of times people have made the point that you cannot draw direct parallels between Finland and Britain.
We simply do not have protracted periods of -15C to -20C temperatures. We may get the odd night when the temperature drops to -15C (Scotland more so than the South Coast), but that is both a rare event and of short duration (hours, rather than days).

Losses of 33% of colonies during the winter of 2012/3 are the worst since records began:
http://www.b-b-k-a.org.uk/files/pre...r_survival_survey_13_june_2013_1371062171.pdf (delete hyphens)
and it is considerd that these figures represent the minimum loss, as there are many beekeepers operating outside of the BBKA.

But 2012/13 wasn't a cold winter. The losses are thought to have been caused by a combination of events, the most important of which was the appalling foraging conditions which existed throughout the preceeding season. This was followed by a relatively mild autumn, winter and early spring - then came a rather nasty cold spell just as the colonies were brooding-up - but which then couldn't fly, for any reason - including that of water collection.

As to your assertion that bees do not consume more during a warm winter than a cold one - well, that is a very stupid comment to have made.

LJ

 

[Finman]

I've lost count of the number of times people have made the point that you cannot draw direct parallels between Finland and Britain.


LJ

Well, who has drawn direct parallels?






.

 

[mbc]

I get almost all of my winter consumption done during the winter, summer is particularly slow for this task.

 

[pargyle]

I get almost all of my winter consumption done during the winter, summer is particularly slow for this task.

Now that's where we are all going wrong ... We need JBM's patent bee trainer which teaches them to eat more in the summer so they eat less in the winter then the winter consumption can occur more in the summer and the summer consumption will be more like winter ... All year round bees ?

 

[Little John]

Well, who has drawn direct parallels?
.

You have.

Even we have those guys here who believe that bees consume more in warm weather. But it is not so. Cold winter kills hives more than warm winter.

"here" is Finland - is it not ?

Whereas:

Honey bees will tend to use more stores in warm damp winters than in cold dry winters as the cluster formed in winter will be looser and lose more heat, in addition if the weather is warmer the brood laying will continue later and start earlier requiring the brood area to be maintained at 34-35°C rather than the 19°C required when there is no brood. In cold dry winters the cluster is very tight and looses little heat and uses far less energy.

Taken from 'Spring Feeding of Honey Bees' by Julian Routh of the BBKA, which I think is a pretty fair summary of the situation we usually face here in the UK.

LJ

 

[user 6228]

I've lost count of the number of times people have made the point that you cannot draw direct parallels between Finland and Britain.
We simply do not have protracted periods of -15C to -20C temperatures. We may get the odd night when the temperature drops to -15C (Scotland more so than the South Coast), but that is both a rare event and of short duration (hours, rather than days).

Losses of 33% of colonies during the winter of 2012/3 are the worst since records began:
http://www.b-b-k-a.org.uk/files/pre...r_survival_survey_13_june_2013_1371062171.pdf (delete hyphens)
and it is considerd that these figures represent the minimum loss, as there are many beekeepers operating outside of the BBKA.

But 2012/13 wasn't a cold winter. The losses are thought to have been caused by a combination of events, the most important of which was the appalling foraging conditions which existed throughout the preceeding season. This was followed by a relatively mild autumn, winter and early spring - then came a rather nasty cold spell just as the colonies were brooding-up - but which then couldn't fly, for any reason - including that of water collection.

As to your assertion that bees do not consume more during a warm winter than a cold one - well, that is a very stupid comment to have made.

LJ

Dont confuse low temperature with high heat loss. High winds and cold rain can do the same damage as lower temperatures. In fact rain is worse than snow.

 

[Dishmop]

But all our hives are insulated and it ensures that there are food enough from September up to April.

As you have previously told us that your bees only fly for three months of the year, what do they eat for the other months?