why 12mm beespace!!

[irishguy]

I've cut out all my ply,handrails, routered what needs routering for my supers. Have sat down to a cup of tea and was ready to assemble these supers but I'm sitting here scratching my head as to how and why there's 12mm space from the bottom of my super frame to the bottom of my super! I was told, any more than 8mm space and the bees will build comb.

My measurements of my super boards are 152mm high, the inner boards where cut at 127mm which gives me an 8mm bee space at the bottom handrail and 8mm under my frame lug. My frame lug is 9mm thick so with all these measurements, it comes to 152mm

When I put my 139/140mm frame in and if it was resting on an 8mm runner, I'm getting 12/13mm beespace from the bottom of the frame till the bottom of the super.

Is there something I'm missing here or is this another flaw in the plans I got from here

I'm afraid to glue and screw them altogether now incase I have to take them all apart and start all over again!

 

[REDWOOD]

side walls are 150 or 152 and the frames are 140 will give you a bottom bee space of 10 or 12 mm

Frams should be flush to the top or some keep them down 1 mm

 

[irishguy]

side walls are 150 or 152 and the frames are 140 will give you a bottom bee space of 10 or 12 mm

Frams should be flush to the top or some keep them down 1 mm

My side walls are 152mm as stated on plans and the side bars of my frames are 139mm to be exact which gives me a 13 mm bottom beespace to be exact. My 2 bottom bars of my frames aren't exactly straight and they are giving me another mm out.

Even if I go with your measurements above, it's still 2-4mm more than the 8mm beespace. Why's this?

 

[thenovice]

My side walls are 152mm as stated on plans and the side bars of my frames are 139mm to be exact which gives me a 13 mm bottom beespace to be exact. My 2 bottom bars of my frames aren't exactly straight and they are giving me another mm out.

Even if I go with your measurements above, it's still 2-4mm more than the 8mm beespace. Why's this?

I have not made my own hives and my answer is a wild guess but the side walls usually are running along the grain. the wood usually shrinks and expands tangentially to the grain. maybe it is to allow for shrinkage of the walls and expansion of the frames?

 

[Hombre]

Standard convention suggests that the depth of your box, be it super or brood box, should be nominally 10mm greater than the frame width. This will give you a nominal 10mm bee space and any slight variation will be . . . Nominal

Remember that when you build a box from a plan, that it is your responsibility to check the various dimensions are suitable. Look at the frame dimensions

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/bsframedimensions.html

Add up the numbers and ensure that the bee spaces are in tolerance. If they are, then go ahead. if they aren't adjust accordingly and if in the final analysis all goes tits up then blame yourself and not the author of the plans as s/he has probably taken them from elsewhere in good faith and also failed to apply the due diligence and check the dimensions.

Sod the myths and take sole responsibility.

 

[Travelator]

Not sure which plans you are using, but the old British Standard has the shallow super depth as 5 7/8" (about 149mm). It sounds as if your plans are based on a depth of 6" (about 152mm)

If you were using the old 5 7/8" measurement, you would end up with a bee space closer to 9mm which sounds about right.

 

[Little John]

Have you never wondered why such an odd measurement as 5 7/8" was chosen ? Even though I've never heard it talked about, I'd suggest there was a 'unit' in someone's mind of 75mm. For two such units gives 150 mm (which is your 5 7/8"), and three such units gives 225 mm (or 8 7/8") for the brood boxes.

If anyone has a better explanation of why N+7/8" was chosen - let's hear it.

LJ

 

[Bosleeu]

As I understand bee space the bees will normally close down any space smaller than 8mm with propolis (or try to) and build comb in any space bigger than 12mm. In between those to measurements they will just use it to pass through. As a general rule this has worked well for me when building hives.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

[ugcheleuce]

As I understand bee space the bees will normally close down any space smaller than 8mm with propolis (or try to) and build comb in any space bigger than 12mm.

No, as far as I know, the range is not 8-12 mm but 6-9 mm.

See also my reply here:
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=415507&postcount=47

 

[Bosleeu]

Sorry, like I said that is the way I understand it, and it works for me when I build stuff. 6-9mm is quoted quite often, probably also fine, I don't think the bees mind.

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[ugcheleuce]

Have you never wondered why such an odd measurement as 5 7/8" was chosen?

Google nasa + horse's ass + snopes. A similar thing may have happened with beekeeping.

Don't forget that budget beekeeping in centuries past meant using existing boxes or existing commonly found planking that farmers could lay their hands on. The National hive is based on the WBC hive, right? And one of the things that made the WBC hive very popular initially was the fact that you could make it from common sized fruit crates.

 

[Hivemaker.]

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/bsp.html...

 

[Little John]

Google nasa + horse's ass + snopes. A similar thing may have happened with beekeeping.

Don't forget that budget beekeeping in centuries past meant using existing boxes or existing commonly found planking that farmers could lay their hands on. The National hive is based on the WBC hive, right? And one of the things that made the WBC hive very popular initially was the fact that you could make it from common sized fruit crates.

Seems we're both wrong ...

The N+7/8" size came about because the frame size was 'standardised' first, and then the boxes were dimensioned to fit the existing frames !
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/hist.html

Bit like the SNAFU over in France at the moment - a fleet of new trains have been built, and now they are having to demolish and rebuild gawd knows how many platforms, so that the trains will fit into 'em.

LJ

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If anyone has a better explanation of why N+7/8" was chosen - let's hear it.

LJ

Maybe because L L Langstroth found that 7/8 " was the ideal bee space?

 

[ugcheleuce]

Seems we're both wrong...

Peer review in action.

I see now that while it is true that the WBC was popular due to it being the same size as a fruit crate, that did not affect the frame size, because the original WBC was actually bigger than the modern WBC (had much more space between the inner and outer walls).

I really liked your theory about 75 mm... but it turns out (from the site you mention) that the size of the honey frame and the size of the brood frame had two completely independent histories.

The brood frame was standardised partly in relation to the size of the tubs in which comb honey was sold at the time (okay, I'm taking liberties with the facts). The honey frame was standardised to help lock two warring clans of beekeepers (who were using different sized boxes and frames until then) into a single hive size, with the convenient excuse that using two different sized frames was then becoming more popular.

 

[Travelator]

I had always assumed that the shallow and deep box sizes of 5 7/8" and 8 7/8" respectively were based on using planks that were sawn to 6" or 9" and then lost 1/8" when they were planed smooth. I assumed that the frame sizes were then chosen to fit the resulting boxes.
However, I defer to the serious historical research which others have mentioned.