Virgin queens piping

[bustergrimes]

I'm sure I've done something wrong here but can't put my finger on it...

Basically I tried to unite a queenless colony and a strong artificial swarm I made a couple of months ago. The artificial swarm had a laying queen (made from a QC in the spring) and already had a super added.

The queenright box is on the bottom with a QE and a super on top. Then I put the newspaper on top of the super and then the queenless colony on top of that. When I returned to rearrange the frames and tidy up there were a number of supersedure cells in the bottom box and at least 2 virgin queens wandering about and one of them was piping (or quacking).

I broke down about another 10+ supersedure cells, tidied up and put the hive back together in the hope that the bees will choose from the queens in there and she mates and starts laying asap.

The queenless colony had no brood and very few bees left. The queen from this colony seemingly disappeared for no apparent reason a while ago and it already failed to accept a QC from another hive and also failed to make QU from a test frame. So now I'm wondering if it was queenless after all?

I need to unite another colony soon and I want to make sure this doesn't happen again. Any help appreciated. Once again I feel like a bad beekeeper

 

[Teemore]

First off, I really don't think those are or were supercedure cells. Post unification, the new "big" colony swarmed. The increase in numbers may have prompted the swarm but more likely, they were preparing to swarm before you united the colonies. No real way to tell at this point. If the colony separates the two VQs or rather keeps them separate, you may lose a swarm headed by one of them. Its not guaranteed but you should be aware of the possibility.

Add another test frame to the problem hive and leave it for a few days before checking to see if they have drawn out emergency QCs.

 

[oliver90owner]

Can't tell. No dates and you don't tell us when you last inspected the bottom colony, so little to go on.

It does appear that you have ignored all the indications of there being a queen in this 'apparent' queenless colony.

Teemore is likely right and definitely right about the cells being swarm cells.

 

[bustergrimes]

Thanks for the reply guys.

The 'queenless' colony was down to 3 seams of bees (lots of stores) by the time I united on 6th June so there was plenty of room in that brood box. This was also the last day I checked the artificial swarm too but saw no QC's. Not saying I might have missed some though of course...

I checked them both again a week later on the 13th June which is when I saw the virgin queens. All of the QC's (including the elerged ones) were on the face of the frames not around the edges as I thought was the case with swarm cells?

I'll try another test frame as suggested. Would you recommend me doing anything else I with this mess I've made?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Swarm cells can be anywhere not just on the bottom bar - supersedure cells are usually in the middle but only a few. So really, more than two cells probably swarming, less than two - possibly swarming.
If you checked on 6th of June and then a week later and there were at least two virgins running around then you missed at least two sealed QC's on the 6th. Don't beat yourself up - it happens (he says knowingly!) the other other cells you saw on 13/06 were probably emergency cells started by the remaining workers after the queen swarmed.
So next steps: well whether the 'Q-' colony was Q- or not they are now united (although some on this thread seem to have missed that point) as one colony so you can't un unite them and yolu have to leave the queens sort themselves out - you may get a cast swarm then they might sort themselves out leaving you with one queen possibly requiring mating. Leave well alone for a few weeks and see what happens, I wouldn't waste a test frame yet to be honest

 

[Teemore]

Test frame will not be wasted if the colony is down to 3 seams of bees. As they emerge they will give the colony a welcome boost. Just make sure you place the test frame in the middle of those bees.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

That's just one half of the unite though - don't know how strong the other half is, I agree the extra brood won't go to waste but he needs to sort out the virgin queens first before going any further

 

[oliver90owner]

On revisiting the thread, it seems like possibly four queens involved here

Now, which ones have gone?

Scenarios could be :
1. Q from top unite kills laying queen. Queen then swarms. Then virgins emerge. Current point in time. Going forward - queens scrap it out or one leaves with more bees.

2. Bottom laying queen swarmed. Top queen swarmed. Virgins emerged. Then as option 1 from curent time.

3. Some weird result with the top queen finally being resident.

There may be other possibilities.

Hopefully 3. is not a sensible option.

The other two would affect the colony strength going forward, possibly by a factor of 2, 4 or even 8. Probably not quite that bad as there will be some capped brood to emerge

Either way you can understand the lack of wisdom in riskily uniting with a colony that is not proven Q-. Maybe there is now a potential queen to head the colony. Possibly lucky that the new queen will only cost half the colony.

I am quite confident you will not make the same mistake again. You will be a better beekeper for that! You can only mark it down as experience and hope that all the new beeks will read this and take note.

And keep a vigil for that possible cast!

RAB

Note: I should have drawn this lot on paper! So likely wrong somewhere!

 

[bustergrimes]

Thanks again all.

The top brood box had 3 seams of bees the other was 9 frames of bias and a half full super. There's still loads of bees in there though - maybe 2/3 of what was before the unite.

I'm going to leave as is for a few weeks then and hope those queens sort themselves out and leave me with 1 mated.

Going back to an unproven Q- colony... next time I see a brood box dwindle to 3 seams and see no eggs week after week how can I be sure it is in fact Q-?

 

[user 6228]

Thanks again all.

The top brood box had 3 seams of bees the other was 9 frames of bias and a half full super. There's still loads of bees in there though - maybe 2/3 of what was before the unite.

I'm going to leave as is for a few weeks then and hope those queens sort themselves out and leave me with 1 mated.

Going back to an unproven Q- colony... next time I see a brood box dwindle to 3 seams and see no eggs week after week how can I be sure it is in fact Q-?

only if they will start Q cells in a test frame and then carry it through...
had colonies go broodless for three four weeks then restart laying ...
had colonies go broodless, supercedure cells built, then restarted laying, supercedure cells torn down...
had supercedure cells when the Q has been laying like a good un...

Bee colonies in transition seem to exist in many or all states at the same time before they settle on a new state...


what did I say about Schroedinger and bees?

 

[Erichalfbee]

T All of the QC's (including the elerged ones) were on the face of the frames not around the edges as I thought was the case with swarm cells?

Can I just say that you have to be careful here.
I have two colonies on brand new combs after Baileys....all beautiful yellow dandelion wax. All swarm cells were on the face of the comb, The bees had tunnelled them into the comb where they were invisible without shaking all the bees off. nice new soft wax, I guess.

 

[oliver90owner]

Place a test frame in the colony and see if they draw queen cells. No cells does not mean there is a queen present.

only if they will start Q cells in a test frame and then carry it through...

I would advise not to allow them to make an emergency queen with a test frame like that. Colony is too weak to do a good job, so unite if Q- , or requeen with a laying queen if there are sufficient supporting workers.

 

[bustergrimes]

Just thought I'd post an update on the situation with this hive...

I checked it the other day and although didn't see the queen there was eggs on 5 frames and the bees seemed to be pretty settled. They've even filled a super, so I'm a happy beekeeper again.

Thanks again to all that contributed advice.