Upper Entrance Colonies

[Putnamsmif]

After all the Finman malarkey on other threads I was researching the pros and cons of queen excluders, and I found an interesting article about some research carried out in the States that appeared to show honey flow was much improved in hives without queen excluders. Even more interestingly it also mentioned upper entrance hives, and again appeared to show that honey production was increased in hives that had entrances above the queen excluder.

Anyone use or used this layout? It was from 1983 so a little old I suppose. Any more current research anyone know of?

 

[drstitson]

"again appeared to show that honey production was increased in hives that had entrances above the queen excluder."

obvious really as the supers are the first thing the bees encounter on entering - so there they are above the QE, top of honey arch below their feet, where are they going to put the honey - in the super. rather than in first free cell downstairs.

presumably would need equivalent extra feeding after harvest but as finman says sugar is cheaper than honey.

also potentially more hygienic as less bee traffic across the "dirty" combs downstairs.


this type of upper entrance can also be used as part of swarm control - as per the paradise farms/MB system for poly hives.

 

[Putnamsmif]

Would depend on how much extra they produce I suppose, but you could leave them a super after harvest. Wouldn't they transfer it downstairs?

 

[user 6228]

"again appeared to show that honey production was increased in hives that had entrances above the queen excluder."

obvious really as the supers are the first thing the bees encounter on entering - so there they are above the QE, top of honey arch below their feet, where are they going to put the honey - in the super. rather than in first free cell downstairs.

presumably would need equivalent extra feeding after harvest but as finman says sugar is cheaper than honey.

also potentially more hygienic as less bee traffic across the "dirty" combs downstairs.


this type of upper entrance can also be used as part of swarm control - as per the paradise farms/MB system for poly hives.

1) Any hole at the top dramatically increases heat losses (measured)
This reflects as a high energy overhead to operations of the hive....
Thus it can only be sustainable in very large colonies and high outside temperatures and plentiful local forage. (not bee keeping but physics)
2)Economies of scale only apply when there are large fixed costs.
3) Do not confuse high yield per hive with high efficiency per unit of available forage or high efficency per bee life.
4)consider reducing fixed energy costs (brood box hive heating) and unit energy costs (ripening heat losses, distance to forage)).

Top entrances come from the U.S. where there is a culture expending large amounts of cheap energy to satisfy short term goals.
top entrances expend energy and the lives of bees collecting it. Is the goal you are seeking worth that loss?

 

[oliver90owner]

I think it is entirely climate based. Some areas of the large land masses have consistently high summer temps. Likely less appropriate to our maritime climate where ambient rarely approaches brood nest temperature. That said, the bees sort their own air-con requirements and likely can control air flows through some upper entrances to some degree.

Roundabouts and swings with the pendulum swinging slightly one way or the other?

 

[Cie]

Some modify the Warré hive by drilling a single 25 mm hole in the front of each box. It seems to allow greater traffic, and to the whole hive rather than just through the bottom followed by trying to find somewhere to off-load the nectar.

Obviously, such an open hive needs daily monitoring if there's a risk of robbing, but the holes are easily reduced, or sealed with a large cork.

 

[Putnamsmif]

1) Any hole at the top dramitcally increases heat losses...
This reflects as a high energy overhead to operations of the hive....
Thus it can only be sustainable in very large colonies and high outside temperatures and plentiful local forage. (not bee keeping but physics)

2) Do not confuse high yield per hive with high efficiency per unit of avaialble forage. Economies of scale only apply when there are large fixed costs.

3)One approach would be to reduce fixed energy costs (brood box hive heating) and unit energy costs (ripening lheat osses, distance to forage)). T

Isn't moisture-laden air more detrimental to bees in Winter than cold? I keep hearing how important ventilation in Winter is. You could always reduce the entrance?

 

[user 6228]

I think it is entirely climate based. Some areas of the large land masses have consistently high summer temps. Likely less appropriate to our maritime climate where ambient rarely approaches brood nest temperature. That said, the bees sort their own air-con requirements and likely can control air flows through some upper entrances to some degree.

Roundabouts and swings with the pendulum swinging slightly one way or the other?

agreed
if the day and night temperatures average over 30C then a top entrance open and the bottom closed makes sense, as the priority then is not letting warm air in. Although one may ask why are they then keeping northern European bees.

However, using top entrances to compensate for very large heat gains from poorly insulated hives in full sun does not make thermal sense.

 

[user 6228]

Isn't moisture-laden air more detrimental to bees in Winter than cold? I keep hearing how important ventilation in Winter is. You could always reduce the entrance?

How moisture laden and what temperatures? The problem does not resolve to simple rules like that.
Heat transfer increases if the humidity increases, heat losses increase if evapouration is taking place. heat transfer increases with water contact.

I was exposed to high humidity and water to day. Yet it was very pleasant and positively life enhancing.

I have been exposed to the same conditions and its been life threatening.

 

[user 6228]

Some modify the Warré hive by drilling a single 25 mm hole in the front of each box. It seems to allow greater traffic, and to the whole hive rather than just through the bottom followed by trying to find somewhere to off-load the nectar.

Obviously, such an open hive needs daily monitoring if there's a risk of robbing, but the holes are easily reduced, or sealed with a large cork.

The heat and mass flows and thermal phenomena that are part of a tall bee nest are beautiful like the mechanism of a fine watch.

Why drill holes in this wonderful machine's workings and so disrupt it?

The more I delve into the Physics of the tree nest the more I am impressed with the bees choice of home and their methods of managing it.

 

[drstitson]

"The more I delve into the Physics of the tree nest the more I am impressed with the bees choice of home and their methods of managing it."

isn't it more to do with evolving to occupy a niche, literally.

in a nectar rich environment the likely best natural source of 40 litre enclosed spaces are trees.

 

[Putnamsmif]

How moisture laden and what temperatures? The problem does not resolve to simple rules like that.
Heat transfer increases if the humidity increases, heat losses increase if evapouration is taking place. heat transfer increases with water contact.

I was exposed to high humidity and water to day. Yet it was very pleasant and positively life enhancing.

I have been exposed to the same conditions and its been life threatening.

When expiration takes place warm, moist air occurs which rises, and then forms condensation when it comes into contact with a cool surface, doesn't it??

 

[REDWOOD]

I think I can remember Finman saying he uses top entrances on big colonies does Finland have a hotter summer than the UK ?

 

[Little John]

Skep hives - which have been used successfully for many hundreds of years - have top entrances.

The problem with the "over the millenia tree cavities have been the bees' choice - therefore they should be considered as a standard against which man-made hives should be assessed" argument - is that until human beings came onto the scene the bees had no other choice of cavity. As tree cavities are formed by a process of wet rot - it may well have been the case that the species survived over the millenia despite living in tree cavities, not because of them.

But for some strange reason, no-one seems willing to consider the possibility of an alternative scenario.

LJ

 

[Teemore]

I think I have read the same article. Inspired by this I experimented this year with upper entrances during July and August and varied the position of the queen excluder. I only did this with a couple of colonies so this is not scientific...

#12 is in a 14x12 poly and built up very strongly in the Spring. I extracted a super of honey in May and when I removed the super for extracting, I gave them access to a super of foundation beneath the queen excluder. They drew that out promptly and a few days later I added another super with a hole bored in the front - a top entrance.
The colony only allowed the queen to lay up the lower parts of three frames to the rear of the super - the rest were stores. She then moved back to start laying up the brood frames at the front of the main BB and around this time the colony began to place stores in the rear frame of the brood box. Once I saw capped stores, I moved the QX down on top of the BB again.
This colony have raised a minimal number of drones this season and were very frugal with their stores last Winter. You could count on one hand the number of play cells in the brood box and best of all, I have seen no sign of them attempting swarm preparations. I extracted a couple of supers from this stock last night and have another one to go: so far @81lbs of honey. I stocked about five mating nucs from this hive during the season and have not harvested any honey out of the BB. I have grafted from this colony.
Observations: the 14x12 hive size seems ideally suited to this colony. I added supers at the right time and gave them extra brood space when they needed it based on my hive observations. The upper entrance may have encouraged the bees not to deposit honey in the brood box but since I ran the hive throughout July with a full width entrance, it didn't really reduce congestion. At any time there were 7 or eight bees inside the upper (20mm) entrance - they may have been guards, they may have been draft excluders. The frames in this stock are run the warm way and the bees created a 45mm hole in the comb immediately behind the upper entrance. The colony stored pollen in the super containing the upper entrance.
The other colony was on double brood but they decided to make swarm preparations.... I am yet to extract any honey from it (BB and 2 supers to extract).

 

[oliver90owner]

Although one may ask why are they then keeping northern European bees.

Oh, so bees originated in Northern Europe? There was me thinking ....

Is Italy in Northern Europe? Didn't realise that ... though some of it not always so warm...

How about Cyprus, Greece? One learns as one lives ... sometimes...

 

[madasafish]

Although one may ask why are they then keeping northern European bees.

Oh, so bees originated in Northern Europe? There was me thinking ....

Is Italy in Northern Europe? Didn't realise that ... though some of it not always so warm...

How about Cyprus, Greece? One learns as one lives ... sometimes...

I thought the first recorded use of bees was in Egypt c2400BC..

http://ferrebeekeeper.wordpress.com/2012/05/18/the-first-beekeepers/

 

[user 6228]

Although one may ask why are they then keeping northern European bees.

Oh, so bees originated in Northern Europe? There was me thinking ....

Is Italy in Northern Europe? Didn't realise that ... though some of it not always so warm...

How about Cyprus, Greece? One learns as one lives ... sometimes...

no they didnt ... but alot of the U.S. is using Northern European variants...
even Southern Europe is cool and damp compared to Arizona, nevada etc...
And the Mediterranean climate is not tropical Florida.
My point was why dont they use a species more adapted to tropical or desert when you have tropics or desert.

If you want a sterile pedantic debate about which subspecies of European bees originated where and is currently be used where in the world so you can score a few points, Knock your self out as tey say across the pond

 

[user 6228]

I thought the first recorded use of bees was in Egypt c2400BC..

http://ferrebeekeeper.wordpress.com/2012/05/18/the-first-beekeepers/

not AMM though ... and best look at the climate of Egypt at that time ... not the same as now.

 

[user 6228]

"The more I delve into the Physics of the tree nest the more I am impressed with the bees choice of home and their methods of managing it."

isn't it more to do with evolving to occupy a niche, literally.

in a nectar rich environment the likely best natural source of 40 litre enclosed spaces are trees.

yes and no... other bees that live in tree hollows dont exploit the geometry like Apis mellifera. and theres a lot of competition for this habitat...