Uniting via newspaper

[Cellectronic]

Hi All
I have two colonies approx 1.5 meters apart in nationals one of them being a small swarm (Possibly Q-) from a few weeks ago and the other is a large swarm with a good laying queen.
Question is ,, Can I unite the two through newspaper and a Q excluder ?
The Q- colony would go on top so hopefully the q stays in the bottom box them when they are united shake the top box into the bottom leaving 1 brood box and a good size colony.
How many sheets of newspaper would you reccomend ?
and how long would it take for them to unite into one .

 

[enrico]

Yes you can. One sheet of the telegraph and it will take 24 hours, when chewed paper comes out of the bottom it's done!

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

You need to KNOW the queen status.

 

[Cellectronic]

yes , I know the large colony has a good queen and I will check the status of the small colony beforehand , If it turns out she is laying well i may not unite ,
Decision will be based upon the small colony queen status .

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

My thoughts are your 'small swarm' is a cast headed by a virgin so it may well be a few weeks before she starts laying so it's not safe to unite at the moment.
as for the actual deed - no problems uniting the way you described, use either one sheet or two of the Telegraph (it has to have some use ) and it matters not whether the queenright colony goes above or below the paper - it just depends on which colony needs to move and which remains in situ

 

[linoleum bonypart]

I've done both one sheet and two sheets...works well

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I had a scare the other day; live and learn. Swapping queens in a colony with a complex history this year to take out an excellent but unknown swarm Q and put in a strong nuc 2016 Q of known parentage, I had three Q+ frames in a box above 8 Q- original frames. Great showers of newspaper so I went to rearrange the frames after about 24 hours. Carefully put the three frames at the back; everyone was cool but that evening the bodies started piling up. So when the books say "leave a week" I see why. I smoked them like a kipper and it stopped so fingers crossed when I check this weekend.

 

[Eyeman]

So when the books say "leave a week

I thought it was 'best practice' to go back in after a few days to rearrange the frames? That seems to be what a lot posters do!
I only leave mine a week because that is the next time I visit the apiary.
Has anyone else noticed:
If the Q+ goes on top (it is usually a 6 frame nuc) then when I come to rearrange them I week later the queen has stopped laying. When this first happened I thought she hadn't survived only to see her doing her usual. On the odd occasions the Q+ is on the bottom the queen is still laying one week later.
This could be due to the Q+ colony on top feeling relatively isolated from the outside world- I use a QE between them.

 

[colinc]

I'm in the same boat

As a new keeper since spring this year my 5 frame nuc has morphed into 2 full solid colonies (via a swarm not a split as my bees obviously haven't read Ted Hooper) they followed with a cast (due to my naivety) which I also retrieved. Two full colonies very happy, don't really want a third hive yet so as 3 weeks this weekend since the cast was hived should have a queen if not its out with the telegraph....! Otherwise it may be squish and unite......!

I'll let you know how it goes.....

 

[Cellectronic]

The small swarm was captured approx 4 weeks ago and the Queen was seen by myself and she did look small (Virgin) . Last Friday I inspected and no eggs present and the bees seemed rather agitated which imo would suggest the Queen did not return from mating.
However I will have a thorough look later today , Fingers crossed.

On the other hand , The large colony had a great laying pattern almost all the way across the frame..She soon got to work in that one.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

if in doubt, don't assume - get a test frame in there

 

[Cellectronic]

Ok , Sound advice and easy done with with the rate the next hive is grwing.
My only concern is would it have enough time to build up before the winter assuming it is currently Q- and they rear a new queen . Or would it be better to destroy any QCs and unite. I would prefer to have 2 hives rather than 1.
The forage in the area consists mainly of heather as its mostly open moorland and hills grazed by sheeps .

 

[Eyeman]

My only concern is would it have enough time to build up before the winter assuming it is currently Q- and they rear a new queen . Or would it be better to destroy any QCs and unite. I would prefer to have 2 hives rather than 1.

If the test frame confirms they are queen less then I would remove all QC's and either unite or buy / obtain a mated queen as this will give the colony the best chance of building up for the winter.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Ok , Sound advice and easy done with with the rate the next hive is grwing.
My only concern is would it have enough time to build up before the winter assuming it is currently Q- and they rear a new queen . Or would it be better to destroy any QCs and unite. I would prefer to have 2 hives rather than 1.
The forage in the area consists mainly of heather as its mostly open moorland and hills grazed by sheeps .

It's supersedure time, so there is time. If you want an aggressive approach that should give increase, AND to write off the possible virgin (not obvious: your call), you could:
1) Take the strong Q to a nuc
2) Merge the colonies. Sift the possibly Q- one: why not
3) Leave the now very strong colony to raise an EQ: should be a goer, stronger than one raised on a test frame in the weaker colony
3a) might be your best chance of a crop, too...
4) I'f you're REALLY going for it and/or want some insurance and have 2 nuc boxes, take a nuc and some EQCs when the EQCs are sealed

It's a LITTLE late in the year for these shenanigans but only a little. Is the heather in a state to nourish this little enterprise?

 

[oliver90owner]

It's supersedure time, so there is time.

Rubbish. No connection whatsoever. Supercedure involves two queens in residence, with one or both laying, so continuous brooding. Emergency cells mean no emerging worker bees for umpteen weeks after the last of the current bias emerges. Not all supercedure queens get mated - that is why the bees retain their old queen after emergence of the virgin. Think about it!

This thread is about uniting (read the thread title?). OP has a cast swarm; very unlikely it has lost its queen. Possible, but unlikely. That cast will not have any emerging bees much before September, if then.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It's supersedure time, so there is time.

Rubbish. No connection whatsoever. Supercedure involves two queens in residence, with one or both laying, so continuous brooding. Emergency cells mean no emerging worker bees for umpteen weeks after the last of the current bias emerges. Not all supercedure queens get mated - that is why the bees retain their old queen after emergence of the virgin. Think about it!

This thread is about uniting (read the thread title?). OP has a cast swarm; very unlikely it has lost its queen. Possible, but unlikely. That cast will not have any emerging bees much before September, if then.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

It's supersedure time, so there is time.



This thread is about uniting (read the thread title?).

Only as a fallback when we THINK about OP might be up to and ask questions rather than hectoring. With a bit further THOUGHT rather than hectoring we can construct two colonies with brood emerging continuously IF OP has given up on the probable VQ, which is OP's call because OP is the boots on the ground.

ADD I accept that if ANY new Q (possible virgin or EQ) cannot get into gear in time to lay winter bees there is a problem but that call can be made in a month and a unite made then in EITHER case. If one colony survives then it will have been slightly but only slightly weakened relative to an immediate unite with no nuc so it is a worthwhile option I THINK.

 

[Cellectronic]

Ok, Thanks all for you input.
Some interesting info you have all put forward and although some have different opinions than others, I have learned from the info you have all provided.

I now have to make my choice in what to do and all your input is appreciated.
Thanks again